A House Cat Knows More Than The IBM Watson

[Steve Klinko]

Nope, it's completely coherent. Watson needs a certain amount of confidence before it will announce a result.

You are using the classic fallacy - argument from incredulity. "I don't understand the definition of that word, therefore the statement that uses it is incoherent because I don't understand it." Doesn't work that way. Your inability to understand something does not make something incoherent.

So in your World a Computer can have the Conscious Experience of Confidence. By your way of thinking, can a Computer Experience Pain?

 

[Steve Klinko]

You're going about it ass-about-face. People are aware of what human consciousness is. What you're in fact doing is simply stating (in your view) not what consciousness is but what you think is not possible without it, simply by defining the things not possible without it as necessarily requiring consciousness.
There's nothing clever in what you're saying, despite the waffle. There's simply a trivial argument that goes from your definition to the conclusion you want to reach. And why is it trivial? Because you have explicitly included the conclusion within the definitions you use.
I'm sorry you are non-savvy with computers, as clearly you seem to be getting the wrong impression of what people are talking about.

As well as the argument from incredulity that billvon has mentioned, you are also dismissing any possible notion of the concepts in question that aren't equivalent in demonstration to when humans/conscious entities display them, or work exactly how they work with such conscious entities, rather than looking at what the concept actually is in a broader sense. Yes, there is a certain complexity to such concepts that comes with them being performed by conscious entities, but that doesn't preclude much simpler notions of the same concepts being demonstrable by non-conscious entities.

Furthermore, you're ignoring in this thread the fact that a cat, lacking self-awareness, is no more self-aware of what it does than IBM Watson is. Cats are biological, and obviously "conscious" in as much as any animal is (they are able to respond to stimuli and their surroundings etc), but they are not "conscious" if by that you mean self-aware - they do not pass any test of self-awareness, for example. They have memory, they have the ability to learn, but unless you can show how they are aware of what they know (this "conscious knowing" that you require for knowledge) then you can't claim that cats have more knowledge than IBM's Watson, as, according to your definitions, both would have ZERO knowledge.

So in answer to your thread: using your own definitions you are wrong - a cat "knows" precisely as much as IBM's Watson: ZERO.

Self Awareness is not required for Awareness of what the Cat Knows. The Cat certainly has Information about things and the Conscious Experience of those things is the Knowing.

 

[billvon]

So in your World a Computer can have the Conscious Experience of Confidence. By your way of thinking, can a Computer Experience Pain?

A neural network can experience pain, yes.

 

[Sarkus]

Self Awareness is not required for Awareness of what the Cat Knows. The Cat certainly has Information about things and the Conscious Experience of those things is the Knowing.

Well, I think you're just proving the point that there continues to be nothing within your threads beyond the definition you use, which in essence is nothing but a claim, but because you dress it up as a definition you refuse to support it. Hey ho.

 

[Write4U]

Self Awareness is not required for Awareness of what the Cat Knows. The Cat certainly has Information about things and the Conscious Experience of those things is the Knowing.

What does it mean when your car's computer flashes "low battery". Is it telling you that your battery needs recharging? It knows this from pure magic, or is it from pattern matching?

Look up "interoception". For that matter, look up "exteroception".

Collaborative Robotics:
The Complexity of Mimicking Humans is Just the Beginning

Complex Sensing Requirements

To assist humans, cobots use a combination of technologies that mimic the basic human senses as well as its environment; however, the five senses must work in combination along with interoception (sensing internal states) and proprioception (sensing relative position) for the entire range of human motions and actions to be possible. Additionally, cobots must communicate and move, requiring yet another set of systems with which to talk, understand, and assist their human coworkers.

Sensing Their Environment: Exteroception

All cobots use some combination of technologies that mimic the basic human senses: Sight/vision, hearing, taste, smell, and touch (Figure 1). These five senses belong to the realm of exteroception—that is, sensitivity to stimuli outside of the body.

Figure 1: This illustration depicts the sensory receptors: Seeing (eye), hearing (ear), smell (nose), taste (tongue), and touch (finger).

To be useful to humans, cobots must have a range of environmental sensors to perform their tasks and stay out of trouble. Common exteroceptive sensors in cobots include vision, hearing, touch, smell, taste, temperature, acceleration, range finding, and more.

Sensing Their Internal State: Interoception

To be self-maintaining, robots must also be able to know their internal state. This corresponds to interoception in humans, or the ability to perceive innate statuses of the body like digestion, breathing, and fatigue. For example, a cobot must know when its batteries need charging and reactively go seek a charger. Another example is a cobot’s ability to sense heat when its internal thermal temperature is too high to work next to humans. Other interoception examples involve optical and haptic mechanisms, which we’ll cover shortly.

much more......
https://www.mouser.in/applications/collaborative-robotics-complexity-mimicking-humans/

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Does it require an emotional conviction for a computer to have confidence in it own abilities or can it gain confidence from statistical libraries?

self reporting error margin &/or variance range reporting

humans are mostly the same the lower end value of humans(group think)

remember all the Greed is geared to service a mechanism to adhere to what services a margin
self reporting
virtue signalling
social trends
cancel culture
political affiliation trend moral absolutes
etc etc
its all possible to be programmed as a range variance outcome

that does not make the computer aware or alive
it makes it an outcome variable relative coefficient which is rendered into a colloquialism as "confidence" to service the group think sales talk of humans desiring to force an outcome regardless of no outcome(hello evangelical religion, cults, group-think's & observer effects)

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Self Awareness is not required for Awareness of what the Cat Knows. The Cat certainly has Information about things and the Conscious Experience of those things is the Knowing.

and the Conscious Experience of those things is the Knowing.

hhmmm ...

it reads here like you have made the jump over the tracks to assign a scientific value to Conscious Experience
[specifically based on stored data access &/or data matching]

was that your intention ?
am i reading your post correctly ?

 

[RainbowSingularity]

if you put a child & a computer & a house cat in a room
& you do not give them instructions
& leave them alone
which one will be the winner ?

Teenage YouTuber Destroys Dad’s $3.4 Million Pagani Huayra Roadster During Shoot
https://manofmany.com/rides/cars/te...on-pagani-huayra-roadster-while-filming-video

do computers do this without being told ?

top right car panel interior
looks fake
note sun and weather bleaching on corners of the knobs suggest it has been sitting outside with no doors or roof for months

 

[Write4U]

Steve Klinko said: ↑ Self Awareness is not required for Awareness of what the Cat Knows. The Cat certainly has Information about things and the Conscious Experience of those things is the Knowing.

Self Awareness is not a Conscious Experience? Riddle me that one, please.....

 

[Steve Klinko]

A neural network can experience pain, yes.

If you think a Neural net can Experience Pain, then you are operating on pure Belief and Superstition.

 

[Steve Klinko]

Well, I think you're just proving the point that there continues to be nothing within your threads beyond the definition you use, which in essence is nothing but a claim, but because you dress it up as a definition you refuse to support it. Hey ho.

Are you seriously saying that there is no difference between Self Awareness and Awareness of a particular piece of Knowledge that you might have?

 

[Steve Klinko]

What does it mean when your car's computer flashes "low battery". Is it telling you that your battery needs recharging? It knows this from pure magic, or is it from pattern matching?

I know you are just messing with me but here goes anyway: The Car obviously Knows nothing. If you could Connect Consciousness tot he Car then it would be Aware, and then you might be able to say it Knows something.

 

[Steve Klinko]

hhmmm ...

it reads here like you have made the jump over the tracks to assign a scientific value to Conscious Experience
[specifically based on stored data access &/or data matching]

was that your intention ?
am i reading your post correctly ?

I am simply making a distinction between Information/Data and Knowledge. Knowledge is the internal Experience of the Information/Data by a Conscious Mind. A Computer cannot have Knowledge of the stored Information/Data because there is no Conscious Mind to Experience it. This is just an exercise for thinking about what Consciousness could be.

 

[Steve Klinko]

Self Awareness is not a Conscious Experience? Riddle me that one, please.....

Where did I say Self Awareness is not a Conscious Experience?

 

[Write4U]

I know you are just messing with me but here goes anyway: The Car obviously Knows nothing. If you could Connect Consciousness tot he Car then it would be Aware, and then you might be able to say it Knows something.

A program is a form of knowledge, by your own words.

Steve Klinko said: ↑Self Awareness is not required for Awareness of what the Cat Knows.

When the car flashes Low Fuel it knows and is aware that fuel is low, it is just not consciously aware of these facts. It is called interoception, a control mechanism.
The rest (consciousness) is all a matter of degree, and IMO, that is what you are missing.

The eye used to be a light sensitive patch allowing for distinction between light and dark. The eagle's eye is the ultimate evolution of this proto-pattern of "vision".

Evolution of the eye

hydras

The simplest organisms with photosensitive patches are hydras – freshwater creatures related to jellyfish. They have no eyes but will contract into a ball when exposed to bright light.

https://www.newscientist.com/definition/evolution-of-the-eye/#

It proves Evolution from self-referential sensitivity to self-aware consciousness.

 

[Steve Klinko]

A program is a form of knowledge, by your own words. When the car flashes Low Fuel it knows and is aware that fuel is low, it is just not consciously aware of these facts. It is called interoception, a control mechanism.
The rest (consciousness) is all a matter of degree, and IMO, that is what you are missing.

The eye used to be a light sensitive patch allowing for distinction between light and dark. The eagle's eye is the ultimate evolution of this proto-pattern of "vision".

Evolution of the eye

hydras https://www.newscientist.com/definition/evolution-of-the-eye/#

It proves Evolution from self-referential sensitivity to self-aware consciousness.

You obviously disagree that Consciousness is needed for Knowledge. You must believe that when the Thermostat in your home turns on the Compressor and Blower, that the Thermostat Knows that the Temperature is above Setpoint. To say the Thermostat Knows this, is a convenient shorthand, but I think (I hope) you know that the Thermostat Knows nothing in the same sense as a Conscious Mind would Know.

 

[Write4U]

I think (I hope) you know that the Thermostat Knows nothing in the same sense as a Conscious Mind would Know.

Of course not, and no one has made that claim. You assumed that I meant in the same sense, but you were wrong in that assumption.

Does an elastic band have knowledge of it original state. Stretch it out and see how it spontaneously returns to its original length. It is called "elastic memory" and is a form of unconscious knowledge.

Shape-memory materials
by Chris Woodford. Last updated: February 13, 2021.

You take it for granted that you can remember all kinds of useful things. You know what you look like, what your name is, and where you live; you can remember famous faces, family birthdays, and maybe you can even speak a foreign language or two. It's much more surprising to discover that inanimate objects can also have a kind of memory.

The atoms in a metal teaspoon stay in the same place more or less indefinitely: once a spoon, always a spoon. Bend that spoon in a vise and you can deform it so it turns into an unrecognizable slice of metal. But if it's made of a special kind of material called a shape-memory alloy, it doesn't actually forget that it's spoon shaped, and if you heat it up again it will magically spring back into its original shape!

Shape-memory alloys are probably best known as the magic materials behind "indestructible" eyeglasses and underwired bras—but they have all kinds of amazing uses, particularly in medicine and aerospace. How exactly do they work? Let's take a closer look!

........more.
https://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-shape-memory-works.html

 

[billvon]

If you think a Neural net can Experience Pain, then you are operating on pure Belief and Superstition.

Nope. It's clear from their behavior. You determine if a network experiences pain if it learns to avoid that behavior, whether it's an animal or an artificial network.

 

[Steve Klinko]

Nope. It's clear from their behavior. You determine if a network experiences pain if it learns to avoid that behavior, whether it's an animal or an artificial network.

Except ANNs do not have the capability for manifesting Behavior. ANNs are Pattern Matching Algorithms computing on a sets of Configured Weights (Numbers in memory). Your statement is Incoherent.

 

[billvon]

Except ANNs do not have the capability for manifesting Behavior.

A few papers for you to peruse:

Criticality in Neural Network Behavior and Its Implications for Computational Processing in Healthy and Perturbed Conditions
The Simplest Maximum Entropy Model for Collective Behavior in a Neural Network
Testing Neural Network Models of Memory with Behavioral Experiments