A Gun control solution - perhaps

A good example of how paranoia effects decision making is unrolling as we speak in Syria.
  • Russia accused of nerve agent attack in UK.
  • Diplomats sent packing.
  • National Guard deployed on Southern USA borders.
  • Trump declares a desire to withdraw troops from the Middle East contrary to his own military command advice.
  • Chemical attack claimed in Syria with unconfirmed nerve agent use possible.
  • Russia is accused of potential chemical weapons collusion with Syria
  • Trump tweets an implied threat against the Syrian/Russian regime.
  • Missiles are used in an attack on Syrian/Russian air base.
  • USA declares non involvement.
  • Israel remains silent, which is highly unusual given the volatility of the situation.

wtf?
It seems that someone/organization is attempting to provoke a major war and it isn't necessarily any of the main players IMO

It has not yet been proven that Russia was involved in the attack in the UK. If not Russia then who?

We shall see where the fear leads the world in the next 24 hours or so...
 
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Quantum Quack said:
A good example of how paranoia effects decision making is unrolling as we speak in Syria.
  • Chemical attack claimed in Syria with unconfirmed nerve agent use possible.
  • Israel remains silent, which is highly unusual given the volatility of the situation.

wtf?
It seems that someone/organization is attempting to provoke a major war and it isn't necessarily any of the main players IMO

It has not yet been proven that Russia was involved in the attack in the UK. If not Russia then who?

We shall see where the fear leads the world in the next 24 hours or so...
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i can't imagine israel sitting around doing nothing but wringing its hands moaning woah-us woah-us while potential weapons grade nerve agents get shuffled around just over its fence and used on civilian targets.
im sure they have not forgotten WWII already.
waiting to rely on anti-missile systems that may not have the best strike rate... may result in a rocket with nerve agent landing in a city...
https://www.timesofisrael.com/videos-raise-questions-over-saudi-missile-intercept-claims/
 
RainbowSingularity said:
i can't imagine israel sitting around doing nothing but wringing its hands moaning woah-us woah-us while potential weapons grade nerve agents get shuffled around just over its fence and used on civilian targets.
im sure they have not forgotten WWII already.
waiting to rely on anti-missile systems that may not have the best strike rate... may result in a rocket with nerve agent landing in a city...
https://www.timesofisrael.com/videos-raise-questions-over-saudi-missile-intercept-claims/
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If I am not mistaken Israel is normally quick to claim responsibility for it's actions. I read somewhere that the USA is seeking to find out if other players were involved. Given the tight relationship with Israel that the USA has, this is quite revealing if true IMO.
Also the air base apparently had significant Russian presence, so why risk a Russian counter strike?

Social media (very small sample) has shown similar skepticism. Something doesn't add up and people are noticing.
 
Quantum Quack said:
If I am not mistaken Israel is normally quick to claim responsibility for it's actions.
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Israel calculates its claims - using some to hide others - and conducts false flag operations once in a while.
Quantum Quack said:
Social media (very small sample) has shown similar skepticism.
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Social media is corrupted, completely, in the area. Absolutely nothing on it is informative, including (especially) it's framing of issues, its focus. It is edited - manipulated - by financed inundation coordinated by competing propaganda outfits. The most prevalent memes are the least valid, and people are all - all of us - subject to the illusions that devolve from inability to assess even the scale of missing information. We as humans cannot reliably allow for ignorance, as a mental fact.
(Re the most prevalent being the least reliable on social media:
https://www.economist.com/news/scie...und-world-while-truth-still-putting-its-shoes
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6380/1146.full)
RainbowSingularity said:
im sure they have not forgotten WWII already.
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They have much more recent memories than WWII. What they lack is local allies. They have made no friends in the Middle East.
 
Quantum Quack said:
Am I correct in saying that it is the constitution that allows this tipping point. That it allows for effectively fascist governance disguised otherwise?
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All Constitutional democracies with capitalist economies can be tipped into fascism.
Quantum Quack said:
The key word missing for me was "that" as in:
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That would be ungrammatical, and also not what I posted - although closer.
Try: My agenda in this particular matter is the advancement through liberal political means of responsible and effective liberal governance - in particular at the moment, adoption of legal restrictions and legal accountability for violating them - of the ownership, sale, and use, of firearms in my existing community of residence and polity of citizenship at all levels: City, County, State, Country.
Quantum Quack said:
I fail to see how strengthening the democratic right for a representative government and the ability to force a government to the polls is a recipe for tyranny?
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Why are you posting meaningless truisms in this thread?
Gawdzilla Sama said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24054955
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Utterly invalid conclusion, truly lousy reasoning from false and muddled premises, immured in a fog of something we need a name for - scientiness? (To go with truthiness).
How does shit like that get past honest peer review? Christ, there's even an elementary correlation=causation buried in there - in the damn abstract.

More significantly: Why does this kind of stuff exist in this arena and a couple of others, and not in fields such as entomology or the like; how does it come to be granted respect and significance by people who easily see through similar bs in almost any other matter of public discussion?
 
Gawdzilla Sama said:
In other words, "Ouch, that hurt!"
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In other words, you're a gullible sucker posting bullshit because you can't see it.

And that's where the jamb lies. Reasonable people will tend not to trust gullible suckers that vulnerable to bullshit with governmental power. They're dangerous.
 
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iceaura said:
Reasonable people will tend not to trust gullible suckers that vulnerable to bullshit with police power.
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police power is an elected position in all states ? most states ?
thus reasonable has nothing to do with whom ever gets the most votes.

to discover if a person has a certain level of "reasoning ability" they must be tested.
generally speaking someone who is put up for an election is deliberately moved away from the spot-light when it comes to any tests of reason.
you see this all the time in US politics.

you may need to find a different way to discribe it.

odd to perceive the reality that many US people might feel unsettled and slightly offended to suggest a police officer(sherrif) is an elected political official.
or is that "elected officer of the law"
"of" would be an interesting study for scholars.
i doubt any US police officers would like to be called politicians.
 
iceaura said:
In other words, you're a gullible sucker posting bullshit because you can't see it.

And that's where the jamb lies. Reasonable people will tend not to trust gullible suckers that vulnerable to bullshit with governmental power. They're dangerous.
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Thank, NRA TV, for that comment.
 
there was a significant positive correlation between guns per capita per country and the rate of firearm-related deaths
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duh

........................
Why post meaningless crap that a 1st grader could have figured out?
......................
It could well follow that:
there was a significant positive correlation between swords per capita per country and the rate of sword-related deaths
 
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Gawdzilla Sama said:
Thank, NRA TV, for that comment.
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That is obviously false. It is also derogatory. The combination makes it stupid.

And it is an example of what I have identified, above, as the key obstacle facing anyone trying to get the US to govern firearms and the ownership of them. It's the jamb.

Look: You posted bullshit, because it looked like science to you. Reasonable people don't trust those who sign on to bullshit that easily, who are fooled that easily, with governmental power.

And lots of reasonable people, almost all of whom favor gun control, would register the bullshit quotient of that link immediately - not everyone is blinded by the light of their cause, and anyone already suspicious of the domination of gun control advocacy by purveyors of nonsense and careless irrationality would be dismissing that "study" by the second paragraph of the abstract.

This:
"Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities"
is an extreme formulation of a basic liberal principle: if you don't answer to reason, you are an enemy of sound governance.
 
Gawdzilla Sama said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24054955
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The correlation they claim does exist, and their data does support it. That's nice - that's a step ahead of a lot of the gun control advocacy.

Their conclusion - this
Regardless of exact cause and effect, however, the current study debunks the widely quoted hypothesis that guns make a nation safer.
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is obviously and blatantly false. It does nothing of the kind, even on their own terms - let alone if considered via analysis of their premises etc.

And worse than false, it is bullshit: presented without argument, without demonstrated logic, without reason, and apparently without regard for its actual truth value or the validity of its premises.

It would be fair to speculate, by the appearances, that the only reason the actual study was even undertaken, let alone submitted for publication, was to provide sciencey looking cover - covariates and regression lines and so forth, with decimal points and all the good stuff - for the conclusion; that the entire thing is an exercise in propaganda, despite its formal structure as research.

That's actually a fair take on that kind of slipshod crap. How else would it come about?
 
iceaura said:
I have always and frequently and repetitively and consistently and explicitly and in detail argued the exact opposite claim, in plain English. I have posted past and recent (very recent) judicial decisions supporting that claim, accurate readings of the 2nd Amendment supporting that claim, and examples of legislation both enacted and possible illustrating that claim (including the Massachusetts law that was at issue in the recent Court ruling I posted). It's been one of my central and most often repeated claims in this matter.

The inability of that "side", supposedly "liberal" or "left" (and therefore dependent on reason) to read with comprehension, or argue with reason, or even perceive the most basic of physical realities, is striking. Symptomatic.

It is evidence supporting my argument here that almost rises to the level of demonstration.
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i honestly can't tell if your just that brazen or just that stupid. you have made the argument to ME in the past that the second amendment is inimicial to gun control. we live in the internet age their is a record of what you said. you cant just pretend you didn't make claims you have. again lying about your record doesn't make you lie true
 
iceaura said:
That is obviously false. It is also derogatory. The combination makes it stupid.

And it is an example of what I have identified, above, as the key obstacle facing anyone trying to get the US to govern firearms and the ownership of them. It's the jamb.

Look: You posted bullshit, because it looked like science to you. Reasonable people don't trust those who sign on to bullshit that easily, who are fooled that easily, with governmental power.

And lots of reasonable people, almost all of whom favor gun control, would register the bullshit quotient of that link immediately - not everyone is blinded by the light of their cause, and anyone already suspicious of the domination of gun control advocacy by purveyors of nonsense and careless irrationality would be dismissing that "study" by the second paragraph of the abstract.

This:
"Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities"
is an extreme formulation of a basic liberal principle: if you don't answer to reason, you are an enemy of sound governance.
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Then why do gunners parrot NRA TV?
 
iceaura said:
And it is an example of what I have identified, above, as the key obstacle facing anyone trying to get the US to govern firearms and the ownership of them. It's the jamb.
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So... uhm ... what's your solution?
How do you get past this jamb?
 
Gawdzilla Sama said:
Then why do gunners parrot NRA TV?
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I wouldn't know.
I have only your word that they do, and as you seem unable to recognize what I'm posting - - - -
Quantum Quack said:
So... uhm ... what's your solution?
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Persuade the main body of liberals to appeal to reason, and make sense in public, and display competence, and adhere to principle.
Of those who must change the terms of the debate, they are the ones who can. (And would benefit most, politically, in general).
An effective universal background check setup - one easy and free and non-intrusive and quick and graded for different classes of weapon (especially high RPM weapons, severely restricted) - along with serious attention to disarming formally recognized domestic violence, would be my choice of starting points.

Meanwhile, a good many other changes not directly impinging on firearms themselves await, some of which - such as changes in the drug laws and various injustices in the legal system, more effective attention to racial matters in general, etc - bid fair to making larger as well more easily obtained reductions in gun violence overall, as side effects.
 
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