A Gun control solution - perhaps

[Quantum Quack]

I am anti war---(I f--king hate it)-----ain't nothing special---most combat veterans I know are anti-war. Picture an 18 year old boy/man clutching at what used to be his stomach and crying out "I'll be good mommy"------------and, maybe you'll understand.

Lets be honest, you may be anti-war but it appears you have nothing to offer the dead school children past and future taken out by legally acquired guns.
There will be more school shootings Sculptor, all on the altar of the 2nd amendment and associated NRA paranoia... no doubt about it...
So what do you have to say?
Obama and Hillary did it...
go on shit-can this video.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Hey sculptor, Vociferous,
When was the last time you took voluntary unpaid, guard duty at a school?
You know self defense and all that sort of thingo...
Support the 2nd with your own time and risk and protect your communities children as well..

======
3rd possible solution
Nation wide guard duty by NRA endorsed unpaid volunteers to protect schools.

Seems like you are prepared to volunteer to protect your right to self defense yet are unwilling to actually extend that right to protecting your children.

 

[sculptor]

It would be difficult to honestly claim that mass murderers are sane.
What then is the root problem?
How can society change to get these people the care they need?

 

[Bells]

Obama was the CIC at the time. He gave the orders as was his prerogative. We engaged via surrogates. We supplied and trained terrorists. No one doubts that we engaged.
It seemed appropriate considering the foregoing/..it had to do with compassion vs feigned compassion.......?

The articles you linked about the death rates in Syria were by the hands of Assad and Putin given the years cited.. The deaths were the result of Assad targeting civilians, including hospitals, schools, apartment buildings with chemical weapons as well as regular ordinances with the help and support of Putin... And if you want to dance around this routine, perhaps you can hark back to the US's lack of compassion in regards to the sanctity of human life that goes back to your country's founding... But those are subjects for another thread and not this one.

Ergo:

a) Stop throwing the thread off topic.
b) Stop misrepresenting facts.
c) Stick to the subject at hand.

This thread is about gun control in the US. Not the war in Syria. Nor is it about Obama's drone policy.

bias
I am anti war---(I f--king hate it)-----ain't nothing special---most combat veterans I know are anti-war. Picture an 18 year old boy/man clutching at what used to be his stomach and crying out "I'll be good mommy"------------and, maybe you'll understand.

Ya. You're anti-war, but here you are, defending a right to bear arms that has resulted in more people dying in a few decades, than in your country's entire existence in every conflict and war your country ever participated in.

You aren't really fooling anyone.

 

[iceaura]

"the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding" and that "the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States".

And the First Amendment extends to all forms of expression, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding. Nevertheless it is governed and regulated. And so forth. No rights can be absolute - they would destroy their own establishment.

And so, that settled, we return to the matter of appropriate regulation and governance of firearms in the US. Clearly we can't have people walking the streets with machine guns at the ready or carrying rapid fire weapons around in children's schools, and no C rights are infringed by forbidding those and other such behaviors, for example.

It would be better if those familiar with firearms and aware of the rights involved would contribute to the legislation and political endeavors necessary. If they don't, what will be enacted in ignorance and oblivious frustration is likely to be inferior and damaging in its consequences.

 

[billvon]

Obama was the CIC at the time. He gave the orders as was his prerogative. We engaged via surrogates. We supplied and trained terrorists. No one doubts that we engaged.

Your Obama Derangement Syndrome grows tiresome. You should really get that looked at. Perhaps a good shrink can help you deal with your hatred and anger issues?

 

[sculptor]

... No rights can be absolute ... .
... to the matter of appropriate regulation and governance of firearms in the US.

It would be better if those familiar with firearms and aware of the rights involved would contribute to the legislation and political endeavors necessary. .

Herein lies the dilemma: (and where we differ)
What regulation would still keep the unabridged/uninfringed right while contributing to public safety? (I mentioned that I almost cried when I participated in the destruction of many/most of the m14s)
Our polity/society has many ills and using the second amendment as the whipping boy while ignoring the long term fixes needed to make of our country a more compassionate and equable economic entity just seems wrong.

Personally, until I see people addressing the societal ills that contribute to inequality, rage and mental illness, I would be of the stance:

"Never give a goddamned inch"
................
meanwhile, the supreme court has also stated that the right is not absolute
so
I await their next opinion.
It seems that with the current whim of the mob and media focus, they should have another bone to chew shortly.

 

[sculptor]

.... Perhaps a good shrink can help you deal with your hatred ... ?

Why?
Because I hate war?
If you love war, then you
A) never fought in one
B) are getting rich off of it
or
C) are completely fucking insane

did you have a D) ?
What is it that attracts you so much to war and murder and pain and suffering and mayhem and destruction that you would defend it's perpetrators?

 

[iceaura]

What regulation would still keep the unabridged/uninfringed right while contributing to public safety?

You have seen many answers to that question. Apply reason.

Our polity/society has many ills and using the second amendment as the whipping boy while ignoring the long term fixes needed to make of our country a more compassionate and equable economic entity just seems wrong.

So don't do that.

Personally, until I see people addressing the societal ills that contribute to inequality, rage and mental illness, I would be of the stance:

You don't see anybody doing that? Really?
Those are bigger issues than gun control, among liberals easily found in the public arena. They are priorities in the BLM movement, among the Wellstone Democrats, et al.
It's a canard in my crowd that gun control operates politically as a distraction from those larger matters - that it's something Republicans use to crowbar the vote. For decades now the common experience in my region has been a sudden barrage of gun rights hysteria just before the vote. One of those almost took out Paul Wellstone, for example, back when - and his entire mental health and veteran's benefits and inequality amelioration agenda with him.

"Never give a goddamned inch"

That would make more sense if the status quo were reasonable. It isn't.
So brittle is broken, eventually.
And what is needed is not "give", but initiative.

 

[Quantum Quack]

After thinking on it somewhat, I see only one solution available given the heightened fears involved.
Strategy:
Do not change or interfere with the 2nd amendment in any way.
Devise and construct an amendment that empowers the citizens to force an elected government back to the polls using a vote of no -confidence.

so ...

• no changes to existing 2nd amendment.
• introduce a new amendment...that deals with the fear of a tyrannical government.

Once this fear is mitigated by the new amendment, gun management reform should become more reasonable and free of current paranoid hysterics.

 

[Vociferous]

Again, you have a problem with adults being targeted before children? What's wrong with you?

At least you agree that more mass slaughter in schools is inevitable..

What mental gymnastics led you to that straw man?
Possible is not inevitable. Sensible people expect the best while planning for the worst.

..yet suggest no solution worthy of serious contemplation.
Teachers before students or students before teachers... eh?

Again, you seem to have serious trouble prioritizing between the two. What do you have against children?
What you consider worthy seems to neglect many solutions.

Should be NO slaughters. Period.

Agreed.

So ... uhm... what is wrong with you?

Nothing. I can easily prioritize children over teachers, without some rhetorical argument making me hedge my moral bets.
I can also remind you that failures to enforce existing law allowed the Parkland shooter to arm himself, and failure to serve sworn duty allowed him to commit his massacre unimpeded.

A Challenge for your mind:

If you could write the replacement to the 2nd amendment, what would you write?
(in lay mans terms of course)

"In right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
How would you answer your own challenge?

Hey sculptor, Vociferous,
When was the last time you took voluntary unpaid, guard duty at a school?
You know self defense and all that sort of thingo...
Support the 2nd with your own time and risk and protect your communities children as well..

======
3rd possible solution
Nation wide guard duty by NRA endorsed unpaid volunteers to protect schools.

Seems like you are prepared to volunteer to protect your right to self defense yet are unwilling to actually extend that right to protecting your children.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything I don't already do. I voluntarily carry a gun, and if necessary would come to the aid of others (called "Good Samaritan laws" here). If I worked at a school that I could legally carry at, I would take on that same responsibility there. I'm only advocating for what I would be willing to do in that position. Utah seems to have allowed this since 2011, without any mass school shootings since.
Schools generally do not allow just anyone to perform armed guard duty on their premises. And self-defense isn't a license for self-appointed vigilantism.
I'm sure if allowed, many retired or parents who could afford the time would be happy to volunteer for such duty. But most states still ban anyone but law enforcement from carrying a gun on school property ("gun free zones").

After thinking on it somewhat, I see only one solution available given the heightened fears involved.
Strategy:
Do not change or interfere with the 2nd amendment in any way.
Devise and construct an amendment that empowers the citizens to force an elected government back to the polls using a vote of no -confidence.

so ...

• no changes to existing 2nd amendment.
• introduce a new amendment...that deals with the fear of a tyrannical government.

Once this fear is mitigated by the new amendment, gun management reform should become more reasonable and free of current paranoid hysterics.

You don't seem to understand how tyranny has worked throughout history. And that doesn't do anything to change run-of-the-mill self-defense uses of guns, like women equalizing the force discrepancy or criminals being armed.

The thread and forum is littered with them. I think I have, actually, cited one or two - a teacher's gun discharging in a bathroom, both wounding the teacher and destroying expensive school property, was one of the several I know I referred to.

And she already pled no contest to "illegal discharge of a gun", paid fees, went on probation, and resigned. That's one out of an estimated 240 teachers in Utah, since 2011, I believe. One incident in seven years hardly justifies your beliefs that:

...they would also be scenes of accident, interpersonal assault, mistaken identity killings, suicides, theft supply, budgetary woes, and poorer teacher preparation.

But people don't really need much to confirm their irrational fears.

And so that solution doesn't work, as noted. You can't "task" teachers like that without paying the costs and suffering the consequences. Teachers are over-tasked already.

It wasn't teachers who failed, it was the police. And in that situation, you wouldn't be asking any teacher to do anything they wouldn't naturally do, given the ability to mount a proactive defense.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Lets be honest, you may be anti-war but it appears you have nothing to offer the dead school children past and future taken out by legally acquired guns.
There will be more school shootings Sculptor, all on the altar of the 2nd amendment and associated NRA paranoia... no doubt about it...
So what do you have to say?
Obama and Hillary did it...
go on shit-can this video.

part of the problem with cult brainwashing of people is that regardles of logic, they do not engage fluid cognition of materials.
they sort information into 4 basic piles.

1 everything that agrees with the cult leader
2 everything that dissagrees with the cult leader
3 everything that shall be unable to change
4 everything that is able to be changed

pile number 3 & 4 pertain &/or involve spiritual divination and can have different flavours.
pile 1 & 2 create the change
pile 3 & 4 control the change or current situation.

 

[iceaura]

And she already pled no contest to "illegal discharge of a gun", paid fees, went on probation, and resigned. That's one out of an estimated 240 teachers in Utah, since 2011, I believe

Another cost - the misuse and accidents and thefts and bs are going to cost you not only all that stuff listed above, but teachers of otherwise valuable service.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything I don't already do

Except teach school subjects full time while managing a loaded firearm in classes of teenagers day in day out.

It wasn't teachers who failed, it was the police.

So not even the police can be "tasked" reliably in this manner.

We knew that, of course. We have had, in my area, other examples of that - for instance, a few days ago a police officer visiting an elementary school in a nearby suburb had his gun fired (into the floor, fortunately) by a nine-year-old student. The police department involved is going to redesign its holsters, in consequence - at no small expense. http://www.startribune.com/student-fires-officer-s-holstered-gun-at-maplewood-school/472954793/
Are you planning to require teachers who carry to have special holsters and trigger guards and such? Who pays? Who monitors compliance?

But people don't really need much to confirm their irrational fears.

So enough to confirm rational fears means a real mess.

 

[Vociferous]

Another cost - the misuse and accidents and thefts and bs are going to cost you not only all that stuff listed above, but teachers of otherwise valuable service.

"All that stuff" you've failed to support.
Teachers who voluntarily choose to carry, and take one the same responsibilities as anyone else who does.

Except teach school subjects full time while managing a loaded firearm in classes of teenagers day in day out.

Hahaha! Apparently you've never carried.

So not even the police can be "tasked" reliably in this manner.

We knew that, of course. We have had, in my area, other examples of that - for instance, a few days ago a police officer visiting an elementary school in a nearby suburb had his gun fired (into the floor, fortunately) by a nine-year-old student. The police department involved is going to redesign its holsters, in consequence - at no small expense. http://www.startribune.com/student-fires-officer-s-holstered-gun-at-maplewood-school/472954793/
Are you planning to require teachers who carry to have special holsters and trigger guards and such? Who pays? Who monitors compliance?

Not when they shirk their sworn duty. But just like everywhere else, when seconds count, police are usually minutes away.
Again, it's apparent you've never carried. Holsters that cover the trigger are standard fair in concealed carry. Not so much law enforcement that expects to serve in frequently dangerous places and open-carry. Quit making irrelevant arguments.

So enough to confirm rational fears means a real mess.

One incident in seven years out of 240 isn't an epidemic, especially when there have been no mass school shootings in that state since it was allowed.

 

[Quantum Quack]

You don't seem to understand how tyranny has worked throughout history. And that doesn't do anything to change run-of-the-mill self-defense uses of guns, like women equalizing the force discrepancy or criminals being armed.

I wrote #190:

• no changes to existing 2nd amendment.
• introduce a new amendment...that deals with the fear of a tyrannical government.

Once this fear is mitigated by the new amendment, gun management reform should become more reasonable and free of current paranoid hysterics.

did you miss the last line or something?

 

[iceaura]

Except teach school subjects full time while managing a loaded firearm in classes of teenagers day in day out.
Hahaha! Apparently you've never carried.

I've been in classrooms full of teenagers. I've been around guys who carry.
And based on that I find plausible the opinions of those who have carried, and also taught school.
Not to mention the accidents and events severe enough to make the news, in places that have adopted school carry by teachers.

Again, it's apparent you've never carried. Holsters that cover the trigger are standard fair in concealed carry. Not so much law enforcement that expects to serve in frequently dangerous places and open-carry.

So are you going to regulate the holsters and other gear of these teachers, or not? The Maplewood police department is footing the bill for new holsters and monitoring compliance - using taxpayer money, of course - despite the fact that its current holsters do cover the trigger and the trigger has a guard.

Teachers who voluntarily choose to carry, and take one the same responsibilities as anyone else who does.

They better step up their game more than that, if they are carrying in a school building.

 

[Vociferous]

You don't seem to understand how tyranny has worked throughout history. And that doesn't do anything to change run-of-the-mill self-defense uses of guns, like women equalizing the force discrepancy or criminals being armed.

I wrote #190:

• no changes to existing 2nd amendment.
• introduce a new amendment...that deals with the fear of a tyrannical government.

Once this fear is mitigated by the new amendment, gun management reform should become more reasonable and free of current paranoid hysterics.

did you miss the last line or something?

How does that address "women equalizing the force discrepancy or criminals being armed"? Did you miss that part? Is that too inconvenient for an Aussie?
Australian vs United States Crime Stats Compared

Rape rate %5 more than US.​

Sexual assault: How common is it in Australia?

Australia has one of the highest rates of reported sexual assault in the world​

Australia’s sexual assault shame: One in six women a victim, putting Australia way above world average

ONE in six Australian women have been the victim of a sexual assault — compared to one in 14 women around the world, according to a new study.​

[URL='https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/nov/08/rate-of-sexual-violence-against-women-has-risen-dramatically-since-2012-abs-says']Rate of sexual violence against women has risen dramatically since 2012, ABS says | Australia news | The Guardian[/URL]

The proportion of women suffering sexual violence in Australia has increased noticeably since 2012, despite the rate of violence declining overall.​

It doesn't take a gun to rape, but it does take one to stop a rape. Are you as nonchalant about women being raped as you are about children being targeted first?

I've been in classrooms full of teenagers. I've been around guys who carry.
And based on that I find plausible the opinions of those who have carried, and also taught school.
Not to mention the accidents and events severe enough to make the news, in places that have adopted school carry by teachers.

Then you don't know anyone serious about concealed carrying. Likely just weekend warriors.
Again, relatively very few accidents, and with serious consequences.

So are you going to regulate the holsters and other gear of these teachers, or not? The Maplewood police department is footing the bill for new holsters and monitoring compliance - using taxpayer money, of course - despite the fact that its current holsters do cover the trigger and the trigger has a guard.

Bakke, who was sitting with students and had the holster on his hip, was unaware the child was reaching for the weapon.
http://www.startribune.com/maplewoo...rm-holster-after-student-s-misfire/478224803/​

If you knew the first thing about concealed carry, you'd already know that is not possible carrying concealed. So just an irrelevant red herring.

They better step up their game more than that, if they are carrying in a school building.

No, they take the same responsibility with the same consequences as anyone who carries. You're just trying to stoke fears by citing the relatively few legal carry incidents (having to cite police to make it that many) in which no one else was harmed.

 

[Quantum Quack]

How does that address "women equalizing the force discrepancy or criminals being armed"? Did you miss that part? Is that too inconvenient for an Aussie?
Australian vs United States Crime Stats Compared
Rape rate %5 more than US.Sexual assault: How common is it in Australia?
Australia has one of the highest rates of reported sexual assault in the worldAustralia’s sexual assault shame: One in six women a victim, putting Australia way above world average
ONE in six Australian women have been the victim of a sexual assault — compared to one in 14 women around the world, according to a new study.Rate of sexual violence against women has risen dramatically since 2012, ABS says | Australia news | The Guardian
The proportion of women suffering sexual violence in Australia has increased noticeably since 2012, despite the rate of violence declining overall.It doesn't take a gun to rape, but it does take one to stop a rape. Are you as nonchalant about women being raped as you are about children being targeted first?

I can understand why you would wish to avoid, obfuscate or other wise divert from entertaining and discussing the solution I proposed. It is after all your intense fear that is your guiding light so to speak.

I propose a way to reduce the fundamental fear that drives the 2nd amendment, that being the empowerment of the people to vote to re-elect a government they lack confidence in, instead of threatening bloody revolution, as is the case to day.

By removing the fundamental driver behind the call to defend the 2nd amendment would allow for more reasonable, common sense gun regulation and hopefully more focus can be placed on personal development so that issues such as the ones you raise can be dealt with more effectively than using a gun to do so.

BTW all stats on sexual assault are chronically under stated. IMO. I would suggest that almost all women globally are subjected to sexual assault at some time in their lives. Using guns to protect them selves would likely increase the number of armed assailants further exasperating the problem to the point where assault becomes more assault/homicide instead.

 

[pjdude1219]

How does that address "women equalizing the force discrepancy or criminals being armed"? Did you miss that part? Is that too inconvenient for an Aussie?
Australian vs United States Crime Stats Compared

Rape rate %5 more than US.​

Sexual assault: How common is it in Australia?

Australia has one of the highest rates of reported sexual assault in the world​

Australia’s sexual assault shame: One in six women a victim, putting Australia way above world average

ONE in six Australian women have been the victim of a sexual assault — compared to one in 14 women around the world, according to a new study.​

Rate of sexual violence against women has risen dramatically since 2012, ABS says | Australia news | The Guardian

The proportion of women suffering sexual violence in Australia has increased noticeably since 2012, despite the rate of violence declining overall.​

It doesn't take a gun to rape, but it does take one to stop a rape. Are you as nonchalant about women being raped as you are about children being targeted first?

first off a higher reported rate of rape could actually be a good thing in that it means australian women feel safer and more comfortable coming forward. what without why is meaningless. also their are several ways to stop a rape without a gun. a rape whistle, mace, stabbing them in the dick with your keys. that you feel a gun is the only way is a product of your gun fetishization. as usual with you there is no real thought no in depth looking at the facts just grasping to protect your gun because at the end of the day its more important to you than people

Then you don't know anyone serious about concealed carrying. Likely just weekend warriors.
Again, relatively very few accidents, and with serious consequences.

Bakke, who was sitting with students and had the holster on his hip, was unaware the child was reaching for the weapon.
http://www.startribune.com/maplewoo...rm-holster-after-student-s-misfire/478224803/​

If you knew the first thing about concealed carry, you'd already know that is not possible carrying concealed. So just an irrelevant red herring.

the concealed carry in a large part the weekend warrior crowd. i would hazard a guess that the weekend warriors are predominately the concealed carry open carry types who talk about self defense constantly. hunters and sport shooters generally have a higher degree of responsibility that the i need my gun so i kill someone crowd. it is no surprise that there is in an increase in the gun violence as ownership moved from hunters to the self defense types.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Any democratic system that enshrines with in it's constitution the legal right to bloody revolution is insane...
Would it not be better and wiser to have a constitution that allows a more procedural process of dealing with "tyrannical"government thus avoiding the need for bloody revolution in the first place?