9/11, so what?

Fallen Angel:

"Why is spain not retaliating? uhm, perhaps because they do not have the means."

Bullshit. Spain could retaliate forcefully enough to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Spain is not retaliating, because they are acting lawfully. And successfully.

The United States has nothing to retaliate militarily for, had nothing to retaliate for, when Iraq was invaded. No foreign state had attacked us, and completion of the mission in Afghanistan in response to 9-11 was and remains incomplete. The US acted in direct contravention of the most basic norms of international law when Iraq was invaded. There will be block-busting repercussions, not only from losing partnerships abroad, but from a scattering and multiplying of terrorists that is a direct result of our extremely clumsy over-kill and exploitation of the circumstances of domestic and world opinion surrounding the crimes on 9-11.

"are our methods looking at consequences down the road? probably not. but it's working isn't it?

No, it is clearly not working.

"... and that keeps you safe.

No, it does not.

"i know, long term we might be f*#$ed. But with a 4 year memory and outlook, what better plan than to treat the symptoms?"

Well done: You have burst your entire ridiculous argument all by yourself, and also offered a constructive suggestion. Americans can and must remember much more than 4 years of their own history, if we are to persist as a great nation.
 
I've now heard again of a US gear up to the draft! http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html
That scares the hell out of me hypewaders. You see even in this thread the incredulity of our citizenry at a glimpse of American impropriety, let alone our history of war crimes. http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm They don't know! Perhaps they can't believe. And this from an arguably well informed cross section of interrnet users.

What of the average American? Unknowingly spoonfed the Obey the Leaders spiel.
If we institute the draft, WWIII is truly upon us. While the informed minority look on, helplessly watching. Even if we organized, most would not see anything but the propaganda they're fed.

PS Amygoodman listed a many September 11th dates about American policies akin to the one you post. DemocracyNow-among the last honest media outlets.
 
hype,
Your last line there reminds me of that old anthem by the Who:
"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again"
- from "we dont get fooled again"

I guess I'm like Pete Townsend in that I am resigned to the fact that our 'leadership' all looks the same. There is little I can do but hope a change comes. If and when a change does come, how can we trust it? I can debate and offer my opinion but in the end...?
 
Whoops- Apologies Cpt.- I wasn't happy with, and was editing- yoinked that last post from in front of you- here it is back.

Insanely Elite:

Emphrio posted the comparitive 9-11s starting this thread, so I can't take credit. As to American situational awareness, it frightens me, too. Yesterday, like most days, I found myself unavoidably talking politics with people I met in the course of the day.

The most glaring comments to me have been along the lines of "Those people just aren't like us" or "They don't think/act like us." These are the sentiments revealing epidemic super-sized blobs of mental lard, clogging up empathy- the most reliable predictor of events in times like these, and the consequences will be devastating if we can't clear this up.

Americans spend very little time imagining being overtaken by a foreign occupation convoy in old familiar, but recently gutted streets- holding their breath as the invaders roar past skittish and armed to the teeth, then following them (life goes on) slowly and distantly, with a gut-wrenching fear of being fired upon, unable to protect your children; or imagining being suddenly confronted by highly nervous armed foreigners in our own streets who do not speak the local language, but who jerkily point high-powered weapons in your face, yelling "GRIBAP BAGOG!!!". Americans spend very little time imagining Washington landmarks going up in huge chest-pounding chains of explosions, or their reaction to their most hated President (but their President) being humiliated by foreigners on world TV. Americans very rarely stop to imagine the sniping and suicide bombings against collaborators that foreign occupation would inspire in some of our own home-grown rednecks. Americans rarely imagine a return to their own Civil War. Americans rarely imagine learning avidly about a foreign culture (yes, that's a tough one), only to have it come bursting into American bedrooms like an alien Terminator at 3 am, throwing bags over heads, dragging men an boys away somewhere, for - something- humiliation, torture or even execution. Americans rarely imagine growing up much too fast because the Occupiers shot your daddy on the doorstep, as he was yelling at you "don't be afraid, we haven't done anything wrong, they'll leave us alone". Imagine the horror and rage, that from the receiving end, surpasses all Their reasons about why They came and ripped your life apart.

America is shaping the horrific and unnecessary circumstances that are going to cause millions of people just like us to do various things- legal, illegal, justified, unjustified, militant, economic , secular, religious- in response. These varied responses will be no different than those the gamut of Americans would exhibit under similar stress.

Oh, and on Selective Service:
nitwit.jpg

Here's our cannon-fodder poster-boy from the SS (thanks for that link, IE) I've actually applied to join a draft board, got my SS package the other day. I was hoping for some SS cufflinks, or maybe a Death's Head pin for the breast of my suit. And sorta hoping that Golden Boy would walk into my draft board: DROP, MAGGOT!!!

But seriously, I've volunteered for a Draft Board (really got an SS package, too), and I'm even more seriously training to be a Draft Counselor, so I can help young Keanus and Keanettes to like, dodge the bullet. Not him, though: If an FBI glitch puts me on the Board and I see him, well, he's shipping straight out to Fallujah, to single-handedly guard the Grand Opening of Target Mart or something.
 
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"I can debate and offer my opinion but in the end...? "
That's the whole point. In order not to get fooled again, we have to learn things most people don't bother to know, put out our unpopular opinions, take personal risks against groupthink. This could involve taking insults or even a bullet. But until people stand up, we will get fooled again, and again.


:cranking up Won't Get Fooled Again: "yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
 
The Who ROCKS,
Saw 'em live once, I got stoned without smoking.
When this song came up the 70,000 rockers got a kind of a silence and the lighters came out. Would be great to tap that energy into removing Bush. But then again 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss' Kerry wants more troops in Iraq and I think he would green light a draft. I'm sad about my anybody but Bush stance. He's got to go.
 
Will he go? Appears to me he has been using dirty tricks right along, down right many people murdering dirty tricks. Imagine Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush and other inside circle members meeting privately to consider how to retain control or to give it up. Consider their mind sets. If Bush goes most of them will go and as far as I can tell, his trusted cadre is not beyond mass murder dirty tricks either. I believe he and his cronies will facilitate an event to justify martial law used as justification to delay elections.

America has put insane murderers into control of great power. Other nation states do the same. Eventually, the military ranking a faction has appears to become directly related to how much sociopathos is exhibited by its so-called leaders.

Not getting fooled again may require abandoning the nation-state, a complex subject that I doubt you will ever see explored in depth on any forum.
 
Anyway you look at, we're stuck with Bush until the election is over with. Until then, watch out brother, because there is more shit coming........

Atta Boy
 
hyperwaders,

spain is not capable of self deploying anywhere, they may be capable of invading a neighbor, but not a country half a world away.

why our methods not working? what are your examples? they shifted away from american targets.

and a shift away from american targets does mean you're safer.

and by saying the long term outlook looks crappy, i meant just that. it doesn't mean that i would change anything we do today. if i were a president.. well, i'm not.

you also place a lot of faith in the educated public. i'd like to disagree with you. i don't think public will ever be well educated (educated as in up on the latest world events, and exploring possibilities without being herded by the media that tells them what to think). part of the reason being, is because they don't have to. our armed forces are stirring the hornest nest everywhere else, but so far they've been doing a great job of keeping everything away from the US soil. yes, yes 9/11 comes to mind. but compared to all the other deaths, like you said, it's nothing right? so they are doing an excellent job. just because your view of a perfect nation is one that lives in symbiosis with the world does not mean that it's the only one. if a nation's citizens need not worry about what's going on outside their borders because they are capable of pursuing all their dreams independent of the world, that sounds like what everyone is striving for to me. as long as US is untouchable, the public will not change their minds, or suddenly become in touch with the world.
 
This whole argument amounts to the same reasoning that liberals often give for the Holocaust or the Cambodian Genocide: that because the US didn't stop Hitler right away, he killed millions of people, or because Nixon bombed Cambodia, that Pol Pot was 'forced' to murder people. Besides, the reasoning also implies that the victims of Pinochet were in fact 'innocent', when they may have been performing illegal activities.
 
Fallen Angel said:
talk2farley:


I'm sure you'd be just as understanding if your mother or child burned alive because some "terrorist" thought them as "the enemy." It is nice to theorize about all this, but something has to be done. And right now, nobody can stop us. Whether good or bad? It really doesn't matter does it? Because we'll keep on doing it until leadership changes, and even then, the next leader will inherit the world from the present one. The "RIGHT" thing is not always possible in a world with no rules, where war is an acceptable solution. It is easy to do the "right" thing for us, because we live in a nation of laws. The international environment has no laws, "international law" is a shaky thing that can be almost always bypassed by the whole sovereignty thing. With no laws around, there can be no right thing. Not between nations at least.
Click to expand...

And I'm sure some future terrorist will be just as understanding when his mother and father were killed because an American bomb went astray and leveled their home. It's important you understand that EVERYONE loses. You can't look at the equation from one side and consider yourself duly armed with all the facts. War is terrible thing; it kills people on both sides. Lots of people. I'm not saying we SHOULDNT fight, only that it is unfortunate we HAVE to fight. I cannot stand people who speak of any armed conflict, by any party, as being some kind of sacrosanct "great crusade." (Forgive me, Eisenhower!)
 
crazy151drinker said:
F Spain. They have shown how spineless Europe is and given all of these fundie nuts a reward for their mass murders.
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You depise fundamentalists, yet you support Bush?

Interesting.
 
Posted by talk2farley

And I'm sure some future terrorist will be just as understanding when his mother and father were killed because an American bomb went astray and leveled their home.
Click to expand...

Exactly. so when that kid blows up the train your family is on you wont hate them or be angry at them because it was YOUR actions that brought it about

WAR ISNT PERSONAL
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Hey dudes.......The world is full of hate and anger. Nothing is going to change and hasn't changed for thousands of years. We were killing each other when the Neanderthals were around and were still killing each other today. So what's new! Right? Right! The only difference is, we have Bush for president. To bad he wasn't around when the Neanderthals we're having their "Club" meetings...........

Atta Boy
 
Sounds like you may have some Neanderthal genes too.........Hey, but look on the bright side, at least you're able to read a little.....

Atta Boy
 
Fallen Angel said:
Why our methods not working? What are your examples? They shifted away from American targets and a shift away from American targets does mean you're safer.
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My hairdresser is an emigre (or refugee, depending on how you look at it) from Israel. Her family back there tells her that they all feel so much safer now. For the first time since the founding of Israel, the Muslim nations of the Middle East have a country that they hate more -- and more actively -- than Israel: the USA. Despite the sensationalist slant of the news reports we get over here, they tell her that suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks by Muslims in Israel have decreased remarkably. They're all heading east and attacking American targets or citizens of their own countries perceived as being American collaborators. Our media make us believe that Palestinians are exclusively responsible for terrorism in Israel/Palestine, but the fact is that Islamic terrorism is a loose pan-ethnic effort that can shift its focus quickly.

They've already been here on a grand scale -- before they even had the excuse of the occupation of Iraq -- and proved that it's ridiculously easy to get to us. They've been to Spain and proved that it's ridiculously easy to get to anybody, anywhere, who they think is collaborating with us.

How long before they launch attacks on American soil in earnest? Of course no one will ever be able to hijack an airliner full of no-longer-docile Americans again, so an attack of the magnitude of 9/11 is probably not in the works. But what will life be like here if we have near-daily suicide bombings that kill and maim people indiscriminately, both in high density areas like subways and in randomly chosen areas where Americans generally feel safe -- as the Israelis have lived with for more than a generation and has shaped their national character?

And please don't get on my case about Israel. I'm not taking sides in that conflict. I'm just asking you all to imagine living that kind of life here in America. If you prefer, use Belfast as a model. It's instructive to note that the combatants there took a good look at the Middle East and decided to seriously consider making peace, rather than watching their beloved city become the next Beirut, Kabul, or Baghdad.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for Americans to start thinking the same way. The days of war being fought "over there" are long behind us.
 
you have a valid point, but perhaps it will turn into something more of a cold war. after all, we retaliated with a vengance for 9/11. if the threat of retaliation will become too great, the terrorists might not attack. and if they do, a lot of their kin are going to die in the following invasion. if we are to compare with israel, perhaps there is a grimmer picture. Israel, retaliates in kind for Palestinian attacks. US has much greater power to throw around. Israel has been at it for a long time, US can do it almost indefinitely.
 
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