4th dimension is extension of 3rd dimension. A world within worlds

[Write4U]

A Universe from nothing is never possible. Nothing as being defined as No physical properties , No physical dimensions , length , width and depth , nor movements and can never evolve .

OK, so you are proposing that the universe is infinitely old and has always existed in physical form as we experience it today. After all, we have based our human mathematics on Universal values and functions.
Except at Planck scale, where physics no longer apply, because things that small are no longer physical patterns (matter), but abstract dynamical values. Read up on CDT (Causal Dynamical Triangulation)

Causal dynamical triangulation (abbreviated as CDT) theorized by Renate Loll, Jan Ambjørn and Jerzy Jurkiewicz, and popularized by Fotini Markopoulou and Lee Smolin, is an approach to quantum gravity that like loop quantum gravity is background independent.

This means that it does not assume any pre-existing arena (dimensional space), but rather attempts to show how the spacetime fabric itself evolves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation

Quantum Gravity from Causal Dynamical Triangulations: A Review , R. Loll, [Submitted on 21 May 2019]

This topical review gives a comprehensive overview and assessment of recent results in Causal Dynamical Triangulations (CDT), a modern formulation of lattice gravity, whose aim is to obtain a theory of quantum gravity nonperturbatively from a scaling limit of the lattice-regularized theory. In this manifestly diffeomorphism-invariant approach one has direct, computational access to a Planckian spacetime regime, which is explored with the help of invariant quantum observables. During the last few years, there have been numerous new and important developments and insights concerning the theory's phase structure, the roles of time, causality, diffeomorphisms and global topology, the application of renormalization group methods and new observables. We will focus on these new results, primarily in four spacetime dimensions, and discuss some of their geometric and physical implications.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.08669

 

[river]

Response by pad

I was going to stay out of your hair river, but the above isn't that wrong *shock, horror* While still speculating of course, the all existing stuff or whatever, is the quantum foam. So its reasonable to redefine "nothing"as the quantum foam.

So then nothing was actually something in the first place .

 

[river]

↑

A Universe from nothing is never possible. Nothing as being defined as No physical properties , No physical dimensions , length , width and depth , nor movements and can never evolve .

OK, so you are proposing that the universe is infinitely old and has always existed in physical form as we experience it today. After all, we have based our human mathematics on Universal values and functions.
Except at Planck scale, where physics no longer apply, because things that small are no longer physical patterns (matter), but abstract dynamical values. Read up on CDT (Causal Dynamical Triangulation)

Then I disagree

Where do these abstract dynamical values come from ? From the physical .

What of before the patterns .

 

[river]

All forms of energy and matter have existed for infinity , from Galactic Cores to Quasars and to extreme cold , absolute zero . The Universe recycles .

 

[paddoboy]

Now you get it pad , congratulations .

I have got that for a long time river, and been trying to educate you along with Dave, who apparently has now given up hope.

Except spacetime is neither curved nor bent .

Yep, you keep saying that despite the evidence to the contrary.
But yep you do have the right to say what you like, just a shame you cannot see how ignorant some of the things you say, make you look.

 

[paddoboy]

Response by pad
So then nothing was actually something in the first place .

You don't seem to understand, we are only speculating?
But yeah, as Krauss eloquently details, the quantum foam is the something that needs to be seen as nothing. Nice to see you accept that from me after all this time.
Far better then your speculaitve hodge podge confusing, contradiactory answers river, don't you think?

 

[paddoboy]

All forms of energy and matter have existed for infinity , from Galactic Cores to Quasars and to extreme cold , absolute zero . The Universe recycles .

Evidence? Links supporting that? References? Or simply more gum flapping?

 

[river]

river said: ↑
All forms of energy and matter have existed for infinity , from Galactic Cores to Quasars and to extreme cold , absolute zero . The Universe recycles .

Evidence? Links supporting that? References? Or simply more gum flapping?

Evidenced because the Universe still exists . Hence the physical is what gives existence to our existence .

 

[paddoboy]

Evidenced because the Universe still exists . Hence the physical is what gives existence to our existence .

Sides step...gobblygook nonsense.

 

[river]

river said: ↑
Evidenced because the Universe still exists . Hence the physical is what gives existence to our existence .

Sides step...gobblygook nonsense.

Not really pad .

 

[paddoboy]

Not really pad .

You have no link, no reference, no nothing, except river's say so. Your thoughts in being able to express your nonsense when you feel like.
Bye river, I do have a life...sorry about yours.

 

[river]

You have no link, no reference, no nothing, except river's say so. Your thoughts in being able to express your nonsense when you feel like.
Bye river, I do have a life...sorry about yours.

Well I'm fairly rational . Obviously .

 

[paddoboy]

Well I'm fairly rational . Obviously .

Yes that's why you are banned from the sciences.

 

[river]

river said: ↑
Well I'm fairly rational . Obviously .

Yes that's why you are banned from the sciences.

No doubt .

 

[Write4U]

I believe that the earliest "something " (the beginning ) was not material or physical in nature.
There existed a condition comprising of immaterial fields, from which material things emerge.

The earliest known Universal condition is the formation of dynamic "fields", quantum fields which are collections of immaterial value which may combine to form Atoms, the fundamental patterned particles (table of elements) on which all matter rests.

But sub-atomic particles are not considered matter, because they have no mass of themselves, but are instrumental in the accumulation of mass.

Are photons considered 'matter'?

How can light be matter or not?
Question Date: 2013-04-24

Answer 2:

Both your class, and the entirety of science is having this debate. First, some precision. Photons are not in light, they are light. Light is made up of photons, so one photon is like one unit of light. Additionally, photons aren't really matter, although this depends on how you define things. Traditionally people say that for something to be called matter, it has to have mass and photons don't really have mass... although this also depends on how you define it.

I'll cut to then end, and then explain the controversy. Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation, which is a form of energy. This energy always comes in distinct units, which we call photons. In this way, light is like a particle, but it still doesn't have mass, so it's not really matter.

The way these particles behave though, is very strange. Sometimes they behave more like a wave, like a ripple moving across a pond. Sometimes they behave more like actual solid objects, like bullets being shot from a gun. And the craziest thing is that whether they behave one way or the other depends largely on whether or not anyone is watching them at the time. I cannot explain this behavior... actually no one can. All we can do as scientists is observe that it is the case and describe it using mathematical laws. If you want to know more about how we know this to be true, there is a famous physicist by the name of Richard Feynman who explains it quite nicely here:

https://www.scienceline.ucsb.edu/

AFAIK, Energy is not Matter, although both have the potential to become manifest in either form depending on the dynamical mathematical action involved.

 

[Write4U]

. deleted

 

[river]

I believe that the earliest "something " (the beginning ) was not material or physical in nature.
There existed a condition comprising of immaterial fields, from which material things emerge.

The earliest known Universal condition is the formation of dynamic "fields", quantum fields which are collections of immaterial value which may combine to form Atoms, the fundamental patterned particles (table of elements) on which all matter rests.

But sub-atomic particles are not considered matter, because they have no mass of themselves, but are instrumental in the accumulation of mass.

Are photons considered 'matter'?

How can light be matter or not?
Question Date: 2013-04-24

Answer 2: https://www.scienceline.ucsb.edu/

AFAIK, Energy is not Matter, although both have the potential to become manifest in either form depending on the dynamical mathematical action involved.

Highlighted

Light Energy is FROM Matter , Write4U . That's what your missing here .

All light sources are physically based . Galactic Core , Stars etc. , give off Electromagnetic Energy . Without a Physical Thing there is No light . And there is No Electromagnetic Energy ; At any wave length .

So Electromagnetic Energy is a Form of Energy given off by by a Physical Object .

In Quantum there is always a particle and a wave ( in no particular order of order ) in order for something to exist . Nothing has neither Quantum Properties .

 

[Write4U]

Highlighted

Light Energy is FROM Matter , Write4U . That's what your missing here .

All light sources are physically based . Galactic Core , Stars etc. , give off Electromagnetic Energy . Without a Physical Thing there is No light . And there is No Electromagnetic Energy ; At any wave length .

So Electromagnetic Energy is a Form of Energy given off by by a Physical Object .

Yes, but where did all that physical stuff come from?

In Quantum there is always a particle and a wave ( in no particular order of order ) in order for something to exist . Nothing has neither Quantum Properties .

Yes, but a quantum event is a physical event based on prior causal non-matter dynamics. You cannot start with irreducible complexity when explaining origins.

AFAIK, all indications suggest that the universe started as a formless chaos, a "permittive conditions", which mathematically self-ordered into various mathematical patterns from which orderly complexity emerged over time.

Patterns within patterns, within patterns, within patterns, within patterns = irreducible complexity.

 

[river]

↑
Highlighted

Light Energy is FROM Matter , Write4U . That's what your missing here .

All light sources are physically based . Galactic Core , Stars etc. , give off Electromagnetic Energy . Without a Physical Thing there is No light . And there is No Electromagnetic Energy ; At any wave length .

So Electromagnetic Energy is a Form of Energy given off by by a Physical Object .

Yes, but where did all that physical stuff come from?

You mean where did Galaxies , Quasars come from ?

 

[river]

In Quantum there is always a particle and a wave ( in no particular order of order ) in order for something to exist . Nothing has neither Quantum Properties .

Write4U response;

Yes, but a quantum event is a physical event based on prior causal non-matter dynamics. You cannot start with irreducible complexity when explaining origins.

AFAIK, all indications suggest that the universe started as a formless chaos, a "permittive conditions", which mathematically self-ordered into various mathematical patterns from which orderly complexity emerged over time.

Patterns within patterns, within patterns, within patterns, within patterns = irreducible complexity.

Highlighted

Then the indications lack depth . The indications then are wrong .

Your not going deep enough Write4U . Your just understanding the patterns . NOT understanding the underlying reasons why the patterns exist in the first place .