UFOs (UAPs): Explanations?

Q-reeus said:
Trying to get somewhat back on track.....
Nothing really in-depth to the following opinion piece, but it nicely gels with my overall view of where the nonmundane UFO/UAP sub-category actually belongs within a larger category:
https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018/04/ufos-the-paranormal-controversy-connection/
Current high profile disclosure advocates like Luis Elizondo are regrettably but predictably firmly in the 'nuts & bolts high tech' mindset category. Doomed to be lifelong frustrated and disappointed to find there is no actual pot of gold disclosure bonanza awaiting at the end of their rainbow.
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Good article. It gives a good summary of my own view on the ufo phenomena that it has something to do with consciousness and the evolution of the human race. The exact nature of it eludes even the most seasoned ufologists, leaving them stranded out on their own naive and narrow conclusions. The phenomenon itself is like a zen koan or richly self-entangling fractal posed to the human race in a time of self-blinding materialistic soullessness. How can we handle the answer if we can't even bring ourselves to ask the question? I especially like the advice Nick Redfern concludes his article with:

"But, like I said, the witnesses are the people who we need to listen to, as they are the ones who had the experiences. And even though it might not sit well with many, the reality of the situation is that there really is far more to Ufology than just us “earthlings” being visited by an extraterrestrial equivalent of NASA. The situation is way, way weirder."
 
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Magical Realist said:
Good article. It gives a good summary of my own view on the ufo phenomena that it has something to do with consciousness and the evolution of the human race. The exact nature of it eludes even the most seasoned ufologists, leaving them stranded out on their own naive and narrow conclusions. The phenomenon itself is like a zen koan or richly self-entangling fractal posed to the human race in a time of self-blinding materialistic soullessness. How can we handle the answer if we can't even bring ourselves to ask the question? I especially like the advice Nick Redfern concludes his article with:

"But, like I said, the witnesses are the people who we need to listen to, as they are the ones who had the experiences. And even though it might not sit well with many, the reality of the situation is that there really is far more to Ufology than just us “earthlings” being visited by an extraterrestrial equivalent of NASA. The situation is way, way weirder."
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We disagree on certain aspects, which simply means we are individuals not ideological clones, but on that highlighted - precisely!
 
Magical Realist said:
... the ufo phenomena that it has something to do with consciousness and the evolution of the human race. The exact nature of it eludes even the most seasoned ufologists, leaving them stranded out on their own naive and narrow conclusions. The phenomenon itself is like a zen koan or richly self-entangling fractal posed to the human race in a time of self-blinding materialistic soullessness. How can we handle the answer if we can't even bring ourselves to ask the question? I especially like the advice Nick Redfern concludes his article with...
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Great. So he wants to move the goalposts even farther back to an even more distant, elusive and more ephemeral solution. Guaranteeing it won't be solved in the 21st century ... but maybe the 22nd century?
Well his writing career is safe...

But, cynicism aside - if this is truly what you and Q-reeus support, then really you oughtta cut skeptics a break. You're intimating that it almost can't be solved - certainly not by eyewitness accounts - we'd need a whole new pseudoscience to even research it. You should therefore find extreme skepticism to be a quite reasonable stance.

To use Q-reeus' analogy: you are proposing the court case equivalent of a murderer who can, say, teleport through walls to commit his murders. Yes, the vast majority of rational people ought to be highly skeptical and you should not fault them for that stance - especially since you have insufficient evidence to support the teleporting hypothesis. The onus would be on you to show that teleporting is a thing.

Dial back the hate. Skeptics are having a rational response to this. You can't fault them until you can convincingly support your position.
 
sideshowbob said:
Credibility is for the credulous. Science requires objectivity.

Evidence is evident - i.e. everybody has the same evidence.
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Your first sentence is rather silly - maybe you really meant 'Gullibility is for the credulous'? Whatever. The rest is a banal truism. Here tiger - some easy prey so-called 'evidence' to hunt down and tear to bits:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...os-encounters-new-radar-tech-key-in-detection
Your detailed expose ruthlessly shattering UFO believers deluded fantasies is awaited with breathless apprehension. Go to it!
 
Q-reeus said:
Your first sentence is rather silly - maybe you really meant 'Gullibility is for the credulous'?
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No. I meant what I said. In a scientific context, "credibility" doesn't count. Only evidence counts, no matter how incredible it seems. Credulous people put credibility ahead of objectivity.
Q-reeus said:
The rest is a banal truism.
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With some people, we have to start at square one.
 
You're intimating that it almost can't be solved - certainly not by eyewitness accounts - we'd need a whole new pseudoscience to even research it. You should therefore find extreme skepticism to be a quite reasonable stance.
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We won't be able to solve the riddle of ufos until the ones behind them are willing to come forward...IMO..No amount of science or reason will unravel the mystery of who they are. We have to accept that in this world there are some phenomena that elude us and yet still tantalize us with extraordinary implications. It's sort of like "dark matter":

“We live in an ocean of dark matter, yet we know very little about what it could be,” said Flip Tanedo, an assistant professor of physics and astronomy and the paper’s senior author. “It is one of the most vexing known unknowns in nature. We know it exists, but we do not know how to look for it or why it hasn’t shown up where we expected it."
 
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Magical Realist said:
We won't be able to solve the riddle of ufos until the ones behind them are willing to come forward. No amount of science or reason will unravel the mystery of who they are.
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All righty then. That's a bombshell concession.

So, you concur that there's no point in any scientific research or resources allotted to these events. All we can do is wait, and get on with our lives.

I guess - while you have a different rationale than skeptics - you have come to the same conclusion: nothing to see here until there's something to see here.

There you go, Q-reeus: you wanted someone here to change their stance. And now you have it.
 
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DaveC426913 said:
...There you go, Q-reeus: you wanted someone here to change their stance. And now you have it.
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Typical amateur lawyer effort. MR imo has there merely emphasized a large facet of what afaik he has always presented here. That many UFO/UAP events are literally known physics defying in nature. As testified to of late by a whole bunch of highly skilled naval/ex-naval personnel - fighter/AWACS pilots/aircrew, plus their radar/FLIR/optical camera records. In sync with shipborne radar operators/technicians accounts of encounters often characterized by HYPERSONIC SPEEDS YET NO SONIC BOOMS. However advanced human tech may become, it will always be necessary for a physical object to displace air when moving through it. No sonic booms at recorded hypersonic speeds, of objects having non-aerodynamic shapes (and lacking control surfaces etc. to boot) implies paranormal not 'normal' objects. Hovering abilities i.e. 'anti-gravity' one can speculate may one day become human tech possible - but the combined characteristics and behavior of typical UFO/UAP reports is off the chart entirely. And this leaves out the many reports of associated e.g. poltergeist type activities.

Neither of us have ever 100% ruled out the possibility of actual aliens from other planets as component in the overall mix. We likely disagree on the credibility of e.g. Roswell 1947 and similar wreckage/bodies physical recovery accounts. No easy resolution to such enigmatic stuff.
I've been pushed to respond here. Anyway MR can speak for himself on your claim.
 
sideshowbob said:
No. I meant what I said. In a scientific context, "credibility" doesn't count. Only evidence counts, no matter how incredible it seems. Credulous people put credibility ahead of objectivity.

With some people, we have to start at square one.
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Your pithy further cute truisms vs my (unanswered) challenge to deal objectively and in detail with content in relevant article. My - what an intriguing battle of wills and intellects this is turning out to be!
 
Michael 345 said:
OK. I took seeing as MR was only one mentioned there was only one UFO expert in forum
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Shsssss... Keep that quiet, you know how emotional and over hostile these kind of experts can get.

Best to call them all experts to keep the peace.
 
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sideshowbob said:
You don't seem to know the meaning of objectivity.
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How about you spell out precisely what your criteria for objective evidence re nonmundane UFO/UAP phenomena is. Accompanied by what assumptions you make about the possible nature of the phenomena. Nothing too trite please.
 
tenor.gif
I have a hard time getting excited about a "space" flight when it's back on land 11 minutes after launch.
 
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