Is faith a reliable path to knowledge?

Write4U said:
Is that where the expression "Holy Toast" comes from?
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Also Holy Pizza and a few others :)

The point I was making, and I am sure you get it, ' god is understanding lifes energy '

appears to be a deep insight but

given a little thought is meaningless

It equates energy as something physical life has, which if we understand it, is god

Since Scientist have a very good understanding of energy (as in the ability to perform work and of course E=mc²)

I am absolutely stunned that the pews of churches are not overflowing with with Scientist

who completely understand the energy of life (Growth - Metabolism (anabolism and catabolism) - :) Employees:) )

As you post - No Mystery

Unfortunately still confusion

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
Also Holy Pizza and a few others :)

The point I was making, and I am sure you get it, ' god is understanding lifes energy '

appears to be a deep insight but

given a little thought is meaningless

It equates energy as something physical life has, which if we understand it, is god

Since Scientist have a very good understanding of energy (as in the ability to perform work and of course E=mc²)

I am absolutely stunned that the pews of churches are not overflowing with with Scientist

who completely understand the energy of life (Growth - Metabolism (anabolism and catabolism) - :) Employees:) )

As you post - No Mystery

Unfortunately still confusion:)
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I completely agree!!!!
But those things are not discussed in churches. It is only to express worship to an "unknown" dynamic (creative) force.

The only way to gain true "understanding" (empathy) is to study how this unknown dynamic (creative) force works. And for that you need only gain knowledge of the Sciences, and in particular the physical and mathematical sciences. Only then can a correct philosophic definition of God be approximated.

God, as a subjective impression of a "sentient" dynamic force (creative) force, has nothing to do with that. The word sentient pertains to ability to receive external and transmit internal information.
Sentience is defined as
Definition of sentient
  1. 1: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions, sentient beings

  2. 2: aware

  3. 3: finely sensitive in perception or feeling.
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Nothing mystical about that. Thus your everyday ordinary evolutionary processes, well documented by , scientists, finely sensitive in perception or feeling (empathy) with the subject of discovering the mathematical laws that govern space and the universe itself.
 
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Write4U said:
But you are the expert in spiritual matters, so I'll defer to your definition
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Putting words in mouths, seems to be the atheists tactic (at least the ones I encounter).

It seems you have to do that in order to validate, and/or, justify your worldview.
Furthermore, it seems consistent with all the atheists I encounter on here.

How can we discuss anything properly if you keep doing that?
Jan.
 
Michael 345 said:
Don't really think that fits the pope or any of the minions in ANY religion :)
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And that's is the crux of the matter. Faith vs Knowledge. Motivation is no problem, it is when faith and knowledge are in conflict, it becomes a Moral problem, and that demands one to defend what is his World.

I was so encouraged by an official (spiritual perspective) declaration by two that evolution is a fact, which fundamentally and fatally flaws the story of Genesis

Science is forbidden to research spiritual matters, but it will gladly share its "knowledge" with the Church.

In the end all will agree that they are searching for the same thing, but viewing the same fundamental properties of the universe from a different perspective (an internal imaginary world) which determines human beliefs and behaviors.
 
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Write4U said:
In the end all will agree that they are searching for the same thing
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Don't really agree both searching for the same thing

I would contend Scientist search broadly for answers as to how the Universe works

I don't see any church conducting research in such fields which would explain the workings of the Universe

Truthfully I don't know what research churches do

How to make Bingo more exciting? :)

May be translation of obscure languages to find something which backs up claims made in other obscure languages in equally obscure books

I am happy to be corrected if someone points out the religious equivalent of CERN or Hubble

Or even a research paper showing the latest evidence in the search for souls and how they work

WOW me

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
Don't really agree both searching for the same thing
I would contend Scientist search broadly for answers as to how the Universe works
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But's the same thing, "understanding" the existence of the universe.
I don't see any church conducting research in such fields which would explain the workings of the Universe. Truthfully I don't know what research churches do
How to make Bingo more exciting? :)
I'd be happy to be corrected if someone points out the religious equivalent of CERN or Hubble.
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The Pontifical Academy of Sciences is a no basement operation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Academy_of_Sciences
Or even a research paper showing the latest evidence in the search for souls and how they work
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Then you are looking in the wrong libraries.
WOW me...........:)
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Don't underestimate the centers of religious power. They have had thousands of years to perfect logical arguments based on a false premise.
 
Michael 345 said:
Agree

And WOW

This says it all

Science, when it is real cognition, is never in contrast with the truth of the Christian faith.

m

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Academy_of_Sciences

Cheers for the link

:)
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Why do you think I said in the end we are looking for the same thing.
But the religious side refuses to accept any science which is in conflict with current scripture. That's the problem. In fact there is a concerted effort to bring ID into school "science" curricula.

Christian Faith has nothing to do with science, It cannot produce scientific evidence.
Tthe Old Testament is beyond scientific salvation. After those declarations of two popes, not one word was actually changed in the bible. I don't think that's honest. How many times has this happened? Is that Truth or an alternative truth.
 
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Jan Ardena said:
You don't accept God, period. Why? Because you're an atheist. That is the basis of why you are atheist.

I responded to your. question in the "In regards to atheism" thread (it was off-topic there also). Go and find it.



How is it that you have no perception of God, at all?

How is it that you think material nature gave rise to abilities?

Jan.
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This isn't about me, this is about you, and how you determine truth. Every time we get close to something interesting, you start being evasive.
 
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spidergoat said:
That's what I want to know. I suppose a god would be able to reveal it's nature

This isn't about me, this is about you, and how you determine truth. Every time we get close to something interesting, you start being evasive.
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I already answered that question, and even posted a link, but you just simply reject it. And now you're just repeating yourself.

Apart from that I think it's your turn to explain your position. I find that more interesting. So...


... How is it that you have no perception of God, at all?

How is it that you think material nature gave rise to abilities?

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
I already answered that question, and even posted a link, but you just simply reject it. And now you're just repeating yourself.

Apart from that I think it's your turn to explain your position. I find that more interesting. So...


... How is it that you have no perception of God, at all?

How is it that you think material nature gave rise to abilities?

Jan.
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You are the one claiming to be able perceive immaterial things with material senses. I'm making no claim. Are you going to explain your position and maybe change some minds? Or just change the subject and confirm that there is nothing of substance to your claims?
 
Beer w/Straw said:
They were virtual particles at first before nature?
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And virtual particles are not material, but more like "spiritual" in nature. Can't see em.

And because that is the default position of the scientific world and the results seem to have worked very well, seeing the marvels of artificially constructed great works of architecture.

At one time, this display of spirituality was expressed I the beautiful cathedrals......... that still exist.

p.s. the red panes in the old cathedrals are made from gold. A miraculous transformation, until we discovered that at powdered (nano) scales, gold changes its properties and yields a oxidation resistant red glass. Check out NOVA "How to make things smaller"
 
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spidergoat said:
You are the one claiming to be able perceive immaterial things with material senses. I'm making no claim. Are you going to explain your position and maybe change some minds? Or just change the subject and confirm that there is nothing of substance to your claims?
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Already responded to this in another thread.

Can you answer my questions please?

Thanks.
Jan.
 
Beer w/Straw said:
They were virtual particles at first before nature?
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A virtual particle is not a particle at all. It refers precisely to a disturbance in a field that is not a particle. A particle is a nice, regular ripple in a field, one that can travel smoothly and effortlessly through space, like a clear tone of a bell moving through the air.

So does it magically turn into ability?

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
A virtual particle is not a particle at all. It refers precisely to a disturbance in a field that is not a particle. A particle is a nice, regular ripple in a field, one that can travel smoothly and effortlessly through space, like a clear tone of a bell moving through the air.

So does it magically turn into ability? Jan.
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Are you implying the process of transition from immaterial to material is a sentient and motivated action? Reality is that everything interacts in an evolutionary manner to eventually construct a coherent image. This involves mathematical functions, not divine wishes.
 
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Write4U said:
And virtual particles are not material, but more like "spiritual" in nature. Can't see em.
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Does "spiritual" equate to invisible? In your view?
Why?

Write4U said:
And because that is the default position of the scientific world and the results seem to have worked very well, seeing the marvels of artificially constructed great works of architecture.
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By "scientific world" are you referring to articles and magazines?

Write4U said:
At one time, this display of spirituality was expressed I the beautiful cathedrals......... that still exist.
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When was this "one time"?

[Highlights mine]

Jan.
 
Write4U said:
Are you implying the process of transition from immaterial to material is a sentient and motivated action? Reality is that everything interacts in an evolutionary manner to eventually construct a coherent image. This involves mathematical functions, not divine wishes.
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No. I'm asking a question?

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
A virtual particle is not a particle at all. It refers precisely to a disturbance in a field that is not a particle. A particle is a nice, regular ripple in a field, one that can travel smoothly and effortlessly through space, like a clear tone of a bell moving through the air.

So does it magically turn into ability?
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Pair production is an avenue of study in quantum physics, not faith.
Virtual particles are often popularly described as coming in pairs, a particle and antiparticle which can be of any kind. These pairs exist for an extremely short time, and then mutually annihilate. In some cases, it however is possible to boost the pair apart using external energy so that they avoid annihilation and become actual particles...
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle#Pair_production

Hence, my comment was off topic anyway. :smile:
 
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