Zhuan Falun ( Turning The Law Wheel )

[EnergyGem]

Hi all,

I've come across a fascinating book that talks about high level spiritual things from a scientific perspective. This book is intriguing as it talks about many similar things to what people in mystical states mention such as seeing into parallel dimensions and interacting with beings from other worlds etc.

This book is called Zhuan Falun and it is from the Buddha Law School of Cultivation however it is not Buddhism the religion or Daoism the religion, it's something more profound. It seems to me to be more of a spiritual science as many of the terms and concepts in the book are talked about in a scientific down to earth manner instead of flowery mystical prose which I found very refreshing.

Now here is where it gets interesting, this book talks about the following things:


Other Dimensions - Levels Of Dimensions spanning into the microcosm and also outwards into the macrocosm

The Soul - It talks about people having a Master soul and a subordinate soul which is hidden from you but is at a more advanced level then you, it states some people have more then one Subordinate soul and some are of not of the same sex as you i.e males having a female subordinate soul etc.

Microcosmic worlds - This concept was very far out but it talks about there being worlds within you, countless worlds. Similiar to our world with life , water, animals etc. An analogy is zooming an an atom within one of your cells and realizing at that level of magnification it is just like our solar system. Then zooming into a single particle in that world and finding out it too is a vast world, apparently the level it can go onwards like this is beyond imagination.

Supernatural Abilities - In the book they mention that everyone has them it is just that they have atrophied. It goes into depth about this topic. Some abilites that are mentioned are precognition, retrocognition and remote vision.

The 3rd Eye - Talks about how at the front part of our pineal gland there is a complete structure of an eye there. Modern science calls it a vestigial eye but in the cultivation world they say this eye just naturally exists like that and it can be activated allowing one to pierce through this dimension and see other dimensions. It talks about how there are many levels to this 3rd eye and it goes into great depth about it.

Thoughts - This part was amazing. It talks about how a human brain is just a processing plant. How the real you is actually your soul, it's like your whole body and brain is just a vehicle and that the true commands are issued by your master soul, but this master soul is very tiny and it can switch positions while inside you and it can also expand and shrink. It can move from your brain to your heart and to other parts of your body and it is 'he' who calls the shots. Your brain is just the factory which your master soul sends his cosmic commands to which then create the forms of expression and communication we use such as speech, gestures, etc.



These are just a few things that are covered but there are many many other things which blew my mind when I read it because of how it resonated with some of the mystical experiences people sometimes have, especially the multidimensional nature of reality and how all of them are hidden in our day to day perceptions of the world.

If this sounds interesting to anyone you can grab a copy of the book here:

http://en.falundafa.org/eng/pdf/zfl_new.pdf

 

[Dywyddyr]

I've come across a fascinating book that talks about high level spiritual things from a scientific perspective.

Since the book STARTS with an unsupported assumption what makes you think it's using a scientific perspective?
Especially as it goes on to reference even more unsupported claims.

seeing into parallel dimensions and interacting with beings from other worlds etc.

In other words woo, not science.

spiritual science

No such thing.

many of the terms and concepts in the book are talked about in a scientific down to earth manner

Um, no they're not.

Other Dimensions

I.e. unsupported drivel.

The Soul

And again.

Microcosmic worlds

More speculation, not science.

Supernatural Abilities

And yet more.

The 3rd Eye

And more.

Thoughts

- This part was amazing. It talks about how a human brain is just a processing plant. How the real you is actually your soul, it's like your whole body and brain is just a vehicle and that the true commands are issued by your master soul, but this master soul is very tiny and it can switch positions while inside you and it can also expand and shrink. It can move from your brain to your heart and to other parts of your body and it is 'he' who calls the shots. Your brain is just the factory which your master soul sends his cosmic commands to which then create the forms of expression and communication we use such as speech, gestures, etc

Distinct lack of science here too.

In short it's woo from start to finish.

 

[EnergyGem]

Actually Falun Dafa has been scientifically verified with many tests being performed on Falun Dafa disciples, here is but one of them:

http://www.pureinsight.org/node/189

 

[Dywyddyr]

I doubt it.
One paper - that relies heavily on nonsense - does NOT constitute "scientific verification".
Especially as the author of that paper is also something of a nutcase.
Try this: "the effectiveness of qigong is based mostly on poor quality research" and "therefore, it would be unwise to draw firm conclusions at this stage".[3] Although a 2010 comprehensive literature review found 77 peer-reviewed RCTs;[75] systematic reviews for particular health conditions show that most clinical research is of poor quality, typically because of small sample size and lack of proper control groups, with lack of blinding associated with high risk of bias.[3]
In other words it's unsupported drivel.

 

[EnergyGem]

Western science is not the only way to find the Truths of the universe. The most powerful ultimate instrument in the universe to explore the mysteries of life is the human mind.
In regards to comparing Buddha Law to today's shallow and limited science here is what Mr Li Hongzhi has to say about it:

http://en.falundafa.org/eng/html/zfl2/zfl2.htm#8


In regards to the the scientific article I provided. It was performed by a scientist in the field of biophysics and biochemistry of molecular and cellular muscle research with a Ph.D in physiology.
It was done under strict scientific conditions and all references are provided at the end of the article.

Here is an article on how Electromyographs Measure Human Energy Fields.

Theoretical physicist Michael Talbot discusses this in depth in his book The Holographic Universe:

http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4426

 

[Dywyddyr]

Western science is not the only way to find the Truths of the universe. The most powerful ultimate instrument in the universe to explore the mysteries of life is the human mind.
In regards to comparing Buddha law to today's shallow and limited science here is what Mr Li Hongzhi has to say about it:

It doesn't matter what cranks say - they're simply wrong. Or lying.

In regards to the the scientific article I provided. It was performed by a scientist in the field of biophysics and biochemistry of molecular and cellular muscle research with a Ph.D in physiology.
It was done under strict scientific conditions and all references are provided at the end of the article.

Yeah and if you bothered reading the article it also states, quite clearly:
Guohua Liu, Ph.D., scientist in the field of biophysics and biochemistry of molecular and cellular muscle research (4-12), biomedical software engineer, healing music composer, and a genuine Falun Dafa practitioner (since 1994). He graduated with B.S. in physics and computer science from China, Ph.D. in Biophysics and Physiology from Japan, and trained through medical schools in the United States, with more than 10 years experience in the research field. He and his research associates have carefully developed this experiment in the medical school's laboratory to investigate how the Falun Gong energy field affects a living cardiac cell.
Nutcase portions highlighted.
Since these "falun gong energy fields" have not, so far, been shown to exist then it's hardly scientific to investigate their effects.

Here is an article on how Electromyographs Measure Human Energy Fields.

Except that they don't, and your link postulates and extends the reality into sheer nonsense.
What electromyographs actually do is measure the electrical activity of muscles at rest and during contraction.
Nothing whatsoever to do with "human energy fields".
Hunt was something of a crank herself, or, at the very least, had much of her work co-opted by cranks.

Theoretical physicist Michael Talbot discusses this in depth in his book The Holographic Universe:
http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4426

Likewise Talbot was also a crank - and NOT a "theoretical physicist" as you claim (in fact he started as a author of fiction and science fiction before moving on to pure woo).

The website you're using as a source appears not to know what science (or, more generally, reality) is.

 

[James R]

The opening post looks a lot like an advertisement.

 

[spidergoat]

high level spiritual things

What's that?

 

[Dywyddyr]

What's that?

Vodka on the top shelf.

 

[EnergyGem]

It doesn't matter what cranks say - they're simply wrong. Or lying.

If you decide to take a look at the link you will see that is quite a sound assessment of Western science. It has indeed made many contributions to mankind and it's understanding of the world but it is not the only way to plumb the mysteries of life, the universe and existence.

There are ancient cultivation schools which train the mind, the most enigmatic and powerful tool known to man to understand deeper things hidden from our day to day perceptions of the world. An analogy is the light spectrum that our eyes can see, it is very narrow, we need other machines to pick up things like infrared, ultraviolet and x-rays. Perhaps there are subtler energies then these that out current scientific instruments cannot detect but that do truly exist. Daoist Qi Gong Master's can detect these energies via training the mind in various cultivation schools.

Yeah and if you bothered reading the article it also states, quite clearly:
Guohua Liu, Ph.D., scientist in the field of biophysics and biochemistry of molecular and cellular muscle research (4-12), biomedical software engineer, healing music composer, and a genuine Falun Dafa practitioner (since 1994). He graduated with B.S. in physics and computer science from China, Ph.D. in Biophysics and Physiology from Japan, and trained through medical schools in the United States, with more than 10 years experience in the research field. He and his research associates have carefully developed this experiment in the medical school's laboratory to investigate how the Falun Gong energy field affects a living cardiac cell.
Nutcase portions highlighted.
Since these "falun gong energy fields" have not, so far, been shown to exist then it's hardly scientific to investigate their effects.

So people like Isaac Newton, Pascal, Faraday, Descartes and many others are all 'nutcases' because they had a strong belief in the divine? They were scientists of the highest order who also had strong spiritual/religious beliefs. Isaac Newton even dabbled in things such as Alchemy and yet his contributions to science are known to all. Just because someone has strong beliefs in the divine does not mean he cannot do sound and rational science.

Except that they don't, and your link postulates and extends the reality into sheer nonsense.
What electromyographs actually do is measure the electrical activity of muscles at rest and during contraction.
Nothing whatsoever to do with "human energy fields".
Hunt was something of a crank herself, or, at the very least, had much of her work co-opted by cranks.

Yes Electromyographs are usually used in the way you stated. Mrs Hunt however found that these same Electromyographs can be used in a different way to pick up such energy fields, here is another scientific study that backs up this claim:

http://www.somatics.de/artikel/for-...uscular-energy-field-and-emotional-approaches



Valarie Hunt was the Professor of Physiological Science, U.C.L.A for quite a number of years. Here is her full bio, quite an accomplished scientist:

http://www.valerievhunt.com/ValerieVHunt.com/Valerie_Hunt_Bio.html

As for your accusation that her work was co-opted by cranks, that is a rather slanderous claim.

Likewise Talbot was also a crank - and NOT a "theoretical physicist" as you claim (in fact he started as a author of fiction and science fiction before moving on to pure woo).

The website you're using as a source appears not to know what science (or, more generally, reality) is.

I stand corrected on this issue, Talbot was indeed not a theoretical physicist as stated in the article however most of his work is based around the scientific work of David Bohm and Karl Pribram, both very accomplished scientists in their fields.

Science is an ever evolving and ever changing endeavor, we shouldn't just disregard something because our current science doesn't currently understand it or isn't far along to fully grasp it. How could science develop then? How could we make new discoveries and break through to knew knowledge about the universe and life? If everyone thought that way could science make progress? Could it move forward?

The most accomplished scientists are those that don't pin science into a box and a conclusion, the most accomplished scientists are those that are broad and open minded, that understand that there is so much we still do not understand about life, the universe and existence. It's the close minded scientists that don't dare to break through the axioms laid forth but the current scientific paradigm and who believe we have it all figured out, that couldn't be further from the Truth.

 

[Dywyddyr]

If you decide to take a look at the link you will see that is quite a sound assessment of Western science.

Um, no it's not. It's a collection of unsubstantiated (and largely unsubstantiable) claims.
Oh, and it's also a rant based on vagueness and a comprehensive lack of knowledge of what "Western science" really is.

It has indeed made many contributions to mankind and it's understanding of the world but it is not the only way to plumb the mysteries of life, the universe and existence.

Really?
Please provide links that show where it has verifiably done so.

There are ancient cultivation schools which train the mind, the most enigmatic and powerful tool known to man to understand deeper things hidden from our day to day perceptions of the world. An analogy is the light spectrum that our eyes can see, it is very narrow, we need other machines to pick up things like infrared, ultraviolet and x-rays. Perhaps there are subtler energies then these that out current scientific instruments cannot detect but that do truly exist. Daoist Qi Gong Master's can detect these energies via training the mind in various cultivation schools.

This is an as-yet unproven claim ALL cases where these sorts of claims have been tested scientifically show that the claims are without substance or basis.

So people like Isaac Newton, Pascal, Faraday, Descartes and many others are all 'nutcases' because they had a strong belief in the divine?

A belief in the "divine" doesn't necessarily make one a nutcase - making claims that this "divine" has been show to be scientifically verified do.

Yes Electromyographs are usually used in the way you stated. Mrs Hunt however found that these same Electromyographs can be used in a different way to pick up such energy fields, here is another scientific study that backs up this claim:
http://www.somatics.de/artikel/for-...uscular-energy-field-and-emotional-approaches

And again you state that a study - not replicated -done by cranks (for example rolfing is a pseudoscience) is scientific verification. This is not so,

Valarie Hunt was the Professor of Physiological Science, U.C.L.A for quite a number of years. Here is her full bio, quite an accomplished scientist:

That doesn't mean that she couldn't ALSO be a crank. That she was a crank is shown, quite comprehensively in that bio.

As for your accusation that her work was co-opted by cranks, that is a rather slanderous claim.

Really?
Making a supposition is slander?
I think you mean libel. But, either way, it's not the case.
Hunt - and her followers - was and are cranks.

I stand corrected on this issue, Talbot was indeed not a theoretical physicist as stated in the article however most of his work is based around the scientific work of David Bohm and Karl Pribram, both very accomplished scientists in their fields.

The fact that he based his work on that of respectable scientists is no guarantee of validity in HIS work.

Science is an ever evolving and ever changing endeavor, we shouldn't just disregard something because our current science doesn't currently understand it or isn't far along to fully grasp it. How could science develop then? How could we make new discoveries and break through to knew knowledge about the universe and life? If everyone thought that way could science make progress? Could it move forward?

Well one way NOT to go is to call such nonsense as this science.

he most accomplished scientists are those that don't pin science into a box and a conclusion, the most accomplished scientists are those that are broad and open minded, that understand that there is so much we still do not understand about life, the universe and existence. It's the close minded scientists that don't dare to break through the axioms laid forth but the current scientific paradigm and who believe we have it all figured out, that couldn't be further from the Truth.

Blah blah blah.
Come back when you have some ACTUAL science, as opposed to unsupported claims.

 

[spidergoat]

There are ancient cultivation schools which train the mind, the most enigmatic and powerful tool known to man to understand deeper things hidden from our day to day perceptions of the world. An analogy is the light spectrum that our eyes can see, it is very narrow, we need other machines to pick up things like infrared, ultraviolet and x-rays. Perhaps there are subtler energies then these that out current scientific instruments cannot detect but that do truly exist. Daoist Qi Gong Master's can detect these energies via training the mind in various cultivation schools.

No they don't. It's a hoax. There is no mind, no soul, no spirit, and no god. Don't be a fool. They want followers, they want money, and they prey on your credulousness to get it. Just like any cult, just like Jim Jones and Charles Manson. Don't drink the kool-aid. Be your own person and reject this nonsense.

 

[EnergyGem]

Um, no it's not. It's a collection of unsubstantiated (and largely unsubstantiable) claims.
Oh, and it's also a rant based on vagueness and a comprehensive lack of knowledge of what "Western science" really is.

All of it is the Truth, there are indeed many ancient cultivation schools that train the mind to gain wisdom and knowledge that current science cannot currently grasp. Science will make a leap forward if it can begin to study such phenomena with an open mind instead of dismissing them offhand, there is alot of wisdom and knowledge that the ancients possessed.

Really?
Please provide links that show where it has verifiably done so.

For now I'll share with you what a group of scientists found from studying a Qi Gong Master, quite an interesting watch:

Also I'll share with you some abilities that Kung Fu Masters possess:

This is an as-yet unproven claim ALL cases where these sorts of claims have been tested scientifically show that the claims are without substance or basis.

In terms of Falun Dafa, a very large survery was performed with over 30 thousand Falun Dafa practioners from various parts of the world. The surveys show that over 98% of people who practiced Falun Gong experienced health improvement, and over 70% were fully cured. It is shown that the subjects' mental and psychological conditions have greatly improved:

http://www.pureinsight.org/node/6628

This is a book of first hand testimonials of people being healed from many different ailments from practicing Dafa:

http://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2005/4/3/59184.html

A belief in the "divine" doesn't necessarily make one a nutcase - making claims that this "divine" has been show to be scientifically verified do.

When scientists such as Newton or Pascal uncovered things using science, they believed that they were uncovering the workings of God, in a sense peering slightly into the mind of god, they saw their scientific endeavour's and discoveries as completely compatible with their spiritual views on the world.

As for that test I shared with you it stated that it showed Significant Enhancement of Biological Activity of Cardiac Cells by Falun Dafa Meditation Energy. It was performed under strict scientific conditions.
How is it not scientific? Does something have to be peer reviewed before it's deemed scientific or real science? That's not so, peer review began in 1665, so are you telling me that all scientific accomplishments before this time was not scientific?

Peer reviewing has a few problems within it also that have been outlined quite well in this article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/

And again you state that a study - not replicated -done by cranks (for example rolfing is a pseudoscience) is scientific verification.
That doesn't mean that she couldn't ALSO be a crank. That she was a crank is shown, quite comprehensively in that bio.

One of the scientists in that study was Dr Robert Weinberg, winner of various scientific awards and a very accomplished and respected scientist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Weinberg

Valarie Hunt also quite an accomplished scientist although her research was quite new and cutting edge. One shouldn't dismiss someone as a crank because their work is new, we should keep an open mind and scientifically study such discoveries further.

Really?
Making a supposition is slander?
I think you mean libel. But, either way, it's not the case.
Hunt - and her followers - was and are cranks.

But what is a crank? If the scientific research is scientifically sound as Valarie's research was, it can hardly be deemed crank worthy. Is it real science if it has been peer reviewed? What is science anyway? Isn't it just a pursuit of Truth and how the universe works? If that's the case one should explore all avenues of exploration and keep an open mind. If you just call someone's lifelong work 'crank' impulsively then how is science to move forward?


Truth is a multi tiered thing, we thought that Newton's worldview explained how the universe operated but as we know, Einstein showed that it isn't like how Newton thought it was, another layer of Truth was uncovered. There may be many more layers like this that we haven't uncovered yet. Now although science is a noble endeavour it is not the be all end all in how mankind can come to understand how the universe works.

If we take a look at consciousness science only has a bare bones understanding of what it is and how it works. However as we know many scientists are now coming to the conclusions that other dimensions to exist although their understandings of these dimensions is still quite small. The Truth is that high level cultivation schools train the mind, they are a higher science so to speak. They can detect things with their consciousness that not even our most sensitive scientific instruments cannot detect. What is the most enigmatic and mysterious thing in the universe that science has only a tiny understanding of? Isn't it ourselves? Our mind, brain and consciousness are barely understood by today's scientists and yet this is exactly what Buddha Law is, it's a science of the mind.

 

[EnergyGem]

No they don't. It's a hoax. There is no mind, no soul, no spirit, and no god. Don't be a fool. They want followers, they want money, and they prey on your credulousness to get it. Just like any cult, just like Jim Jones and Charles Manson. Don't drink the kool-aid. Be your own person and reject this nonsense.

Actually Spidergoat no money is involved with Dafa whatsoever. The whole practice, books, materials etc are all free to download and practice. It's totally open, people come and go as they please and people usually like to keep practicing because of the energizing and healing benefits that one receives. I already shared the healing and rejuvinating effects with my response to Dywyddyr above if you want to check it out.

 

[James R]

In terms of Falun Dafa, a very large survery was performed with over 30 thousand Falun Dafa practioners from various parts of the world. The surveys show that over 98% of people who practiced Falun Gong experienced health improvement, and over 70% were fully cured.

Think about that for a moment.

If Falun Gong is a miracle cure for disease and other illness, like you say it is, why isn't it prescribed by health authorities? Some kind of conspiracy, perhaps?

I mean, wouldn't health authorities and governments jump at something that could fully cure 70% of illnesses? Think of the money that would be saved.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Since the majority of your post is yet more claims of scientific evidence - which it isn't, it's just claims - I'll restrain myself to just this:

One of the scientists in that study was Dr Robert Weinberg, winner of various scientific awards and a very accomplished and respected scientist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Weinberg

One of the "scientists" in that study was A Robert Weinberg:
Robert Weinberg, Department of Psychology, University of California, Los Angeles
I suspect that it may have been Robert S. Weinberg - a sport psychologist, as opposed to THE Robert A. Weinberg - a biologist according to the Wiki page. Perhaps you should stop making false claims.

Valarie Hunt also quite an accomplished scientist although her research was quite new and cutting edge. One shouldn't dismiss someone as a crank because their work is new, we should keep an open mind and scientifically study such discoveries further.

I dismiss her as a crank because her work is unevidenced.

 

[EnergyGem]

Think about that for a moment.

If Falun Gong is a miracle cure for disease and other illness, like you say it is, why isn't it prescribed by health authorities? Some kind of conspiracy, perhaps?

I mean, wouldn't health authorities and governments jump at something that could fully cure 70% of illnesses? Think of the money that would be saved.

James this is a good point you bring up. This question is directly addressed in Zhuan Falun in one section of the book entitled "Hospital Treatments and QiGong Treatments":

http://en.falundafa.org/eng/zfl_new_7.html#5

Since the majority of your post is yet more claims of scientific evidence - which it isn't, it's just claims - I'll restrain myself to just this:

One of the "scientists" in that study was A Robert Weinberg:
Robert Weinberg, Department of Psychology, University of California, Los Angeles
I suspect that it may have been Robert S. Weinberg - a sport psychologist, as opposed to THE Robert A. Weinberg - a biologist according to the Wiki page. Perhaps you should stop making false claims.

I stand corrected, your right on this point. I should have researched this person a little closer before posting that. I will however share with some more scientific research that has been performed on Dafa practitioners, fascinating results:

http://www.pureinsight.org/node/197

 

[spidergoat]

Your cult is dangerously stupid.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I stand corrected, your right on this point. I should have researched this person a little closer before posting that. I will however share with some more scientific research that has been performed on Dafa practitioners, fascinating results:
http://www.pureinsight.org/node/197

Yeah. Once again all you're presenting is CLAIMS from people with a heavily vested interest (i.e. cranks with a pre-formed opinion on the subject) as opposed to verified science.

 

[spidergoat]

I stand corrected, your right on this point. I should have researched this person a little closer before posting that. I will however share with some more scientific research that has been performed on Dafa practitioners, fascinating results:

http://www.pureinsight.org/node/197

So, I looked this up. Right in the beginning is a glaring fault:

"Subjects and design: Six (6) Asian FLG practitioners and 6 Asian normal healthy controls were recruited for our study."

The entire study is based on 12 people.