General Relativity and Time

wellwisher

wellwisher

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Please do not post pseudoscience in the Science subforums.
In General Relativity, if we start with mass M, spread over distance D, changes within the mass and/or distance, will alter the local space-time reference and the local the space-time well.

If you look closely, the final space-time reference and/or the final space-time well, due to changes in mass and/or distance, is not dependent on time, even though the time aspect within space-time will change. In other words, whether we add or subtract mass and/or distance, quickly or slowly in time (large or small force) whether we do this in quantum steps, where we skip time, or whether we do this continuously or discontinuously in time; off and on in time, does not change the final steady state space-time reference or space-time well. The final reference for time, in space-time is only dependent on mass and distance, but not on time.

Say we zero out distance, but vary the mass by adding or subtracting mass to a point in space. The final space-time reference and space-time well will still vary. On the other hand, if we zero out mass, but add or subtract distance, space-time will not change. Changing position or volume in empty space, void of mass, does not impact space-time. From this basic analysis, the hierarchy behind space-time reference is first mass, then distance and then time; MDT.
 
wellwisher said:
In General Relativity, if we start with mass M, spread over distance D, changes within the mass and/or distance, will alter the local space-time reference and the local the space-time well.
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What a convoluted, complicated interpretation that be.
Space exists, time exists:
"The views of space and time which I wish to lay before you have sprung from the soil of experimental physics, and therein lies their strength. They are radical. Henceforth space by itself, and time by itself, are doomed to fade away into mere shadows, and only a kind of union of the two will preserve an independent reality".
Hermann Minkowski:

Mass acts to deform spacetime creating the effect we call gravity.
Neither time nor space are absolute.
The effects of gravity on time are well known and evidenced with time dilation.
Space separates matter within spacetime: Time stops everything from happening together:
It has been 13.83 billion years, as measured by Earth references, since space and time, as we know them [henceforth known as spacetime] came into existence.
Time may not be fundamental, but that does not mean its not real.
http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/10/18/is-time-real/
 
I agree, but space-time does not manipulate GR, because space-time is the dependent variable. This can be shown in the lab by altering mass. You can't alter spacetime and make new mass appear in the lab. The dependent variable of space-time contains time, yet the independent variable GR, is not dependent on time.

The mistake you are making is assuming space-time is an independent variable. As a dependent variable, time in space-time is not dependent on time, but only mass and distance. Mass and distance come first then space-time alters. How does time come and go from mass?
 
I have no problem with the interconnection of time and space as space-time. This can be explained as an artifact of a quantum universe, which I will show shortly. The fact remains GR can manipulate space-time because GR is the independent variable, and space-time follows as a dependent. GR is not time dependent but can use many paths in time to get the exact same space-time reference. This final result is only dependent on mass and distance.
 
wellwisher said:
I agree, but space-time does not manipulate GR, because space-time is the dependent variable. This can be shown in the lab by altering mass. You can't alter spacetime and make new mass appear in the lab. The dependent variable of space-time contains time, yet the independent variable GR, is not dependent on time.
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Not everything is able to be tested in the Lab, and it is rather silly to always express that.
wellwisher said:
The mistake you are making is assuming space-time is an independent variable. As a dependent variable, time in space-time is not dependent on time, but only mass and distance. Mass and distance come first then space-time alters. How does time come and go from mass?
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It's you who is confused.
Space and time, [spacetime] is what evolved from the BB......mass and distance, [expansion came later.
The following may help.
Can space exist by itself without matter or energy around?
No. Experiments continue to show that there is no 'space' that stands apart from space-time itself...no arena in which matter, energy and gravity operate which is not affected by matter, energy and gravity. General relativity tells us that what we call space is just another feature of the gravitational field of the universe, so space and space-time can and do exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field. This is not speculation, but sound observation.
https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/a11332.html
 
Can you show any observation of pure space-time coming first in term of an effect that manipulates matter and energy? I can show you endless of examples of mass and distance manipulating space-time via GR. The independent variable is the one that can do all endless tasks. The dependent variable can't do much with help.

I can use mass to manipulate local space-time and use that space-time change in influence added matter. Bit you can't start with space-time, all by itself, since it is dependent. That final dependency of time in space-time, is traced back only to mass and distance.

How does mass and distance add up to space-time? Does mass contain time potential?
 
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Say we start with a point of space; singularity, and keep adding mass, space-time will appear and will continue to contract due to GR, with each addition of mass. In this example, space-time reference is directly related to only mass, since distance=0 and time is not important at the level of GR.

The most logical explanation for how pure mass can define time in space-time is mass contains potential in time, that defines the time reference within space-time. As such, changes in mass and/or mass geometry will impact how the time potential, inherent within mass, is distributed over space, defining how time relates to distance.

The time potential within mass can be explained as being connected to the in situ motion of the sub particles within matter composites like protons. These in situ sub particles, move close to the speed of light and will therefore exist in highly time dilated references. This in situ time dilation, within the composite, creates a reference in reference effect. Space-time is the external or dependent reference, while the in situ reference defines an internal reference that is the independent reference. In the case of mass interaction; gravity, the in situ reference is the primary interaction of all mass, but we measure the impact from a dependent space-time reference, because of atomic composites; tradition. This tradition came before we could prove the details of the sub structure.
 
I will add one more aspect that I have already presented.

As a thought experiment, say you had two space-time references, side by side, with one reference stationary and the other reference given sufficient energy so it can move near the speed of light. The moving reference will show time dilation, with the clocks in that reference running slower. This is basic SR.

Next, say you could put your hand into the slow reference, with you hand somehow retaining your stationary reference (hypothetical for illustration). This is illustration of reference in reference. What you will try to do is dribble a basketball in the slowed reference, from your faster stationary reference; hand is part of fast reference Because time is running slower in the other reference, and the laws of physics are the same in both references, if you tried to dribble the ball normally for your reference, the other reference ball will not accelerate properly from your hand, as expected in your reference, because it is moving slower in time.

Because time is running slower, the needed acceleration/force, to get a normal looking dribble affect, in your reference, will need to change magnitude. You will need to increase the amount of pushing force, beyond what your reference would need, to make it move as fast expected in your reference, to compensate for time lag.

After it rebounds the floor, if you tried to pushed it down as it rose up, it will push your hand upward, as though it has this extra inertia. The in situ time, in the reference in reference effect, acts like a lever, leveraging acceleration, inertia and force; properties we associate with mass as mass impacts space-time.
 
wellwisher said:
I will add one more aspect that I have already presented.

As a thought experiment, say you had two space-time references, side by side, with one reference stationary and the other reference given sufficient energy so it can move near the speed of light. The moving reference will show time dilation, with the clocks in that reference running slower. This is basic SR.

Next, say you could put your hand into the slow reference, with you hand somehow retaining your stationary reference (hypothetical for illustration). This is illustration of reference in reference. What you will try to do is dribble a basketball in the slowed reference, from your faster stationary reference; hand is part of fast reference Because time is running slower in the other reference, and the laws of physics are the same in both references, if you tried to dribble the ball normally for your reference, the other reference ball will not accelerate properly from your hand, as expected in your reference, because it is moving slower in time.

Because time is running slower, the needed acceleration/force, to get a normal looking dribble affect, in your reference, will need to change magnitude. You will need to increase the amount of pushing force, beyond what your reference would need, to make it move as fast expected in your reference, to compensate for time lag.

After it rebounds the floor, if you tried to pushed it down as it rose up, it will push your hand upward, as though it has this extra inertia. The in situ time, in the reference in reference effect, acts like a lever, leveraging acceleration, inertia and force; properties we associate with mass as mass impacts space-time.
Click to expand...

Try explaining again what you are getting at.
 
wellwisher said:
Say we start with a point of space; singularity, and keep adding mass, space-time will appear and will continue to contract due to GR, with each addition of mass. In this example, space-time reference is directly related to only mass, since distance=0 and time is not important at the level of GR.

The most logical explanation for how pure mass can define time in space-time is mass contains potential in time, that defines the time reference within space-time. As such, changes in mass and/or mass geometry will impact how the time potential, inherent within mass, is distributed over space, defining how time relates to distance.

The time potential within mass can be explained as being connected to the in situ motion of the sub particles within matter composites like protons. These in situ sub particles, move close to the speed of light and will therefore exist in highly time dilated references. This in situ time dilation, within the composite, creates a reference in reference effect. Space-time is the external or dependent reference, while the in situ reference defines an internal reference that is the independent reference. In the case of mass interaction; gravity, the in situ reference is the primary interaction of all mass, but we measure the impact from a dependent space-time reference, because of atomic composites; tradition. This tradition came before we could prove the details of the sub structure.
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how does distance equal zero when you're adding mass and space time eventually appears ?
the singularity itself has distance in a 3d form.
also you may not understand the fighting between energy and gravity.
also how is time not an element in GR if it pertains to gravity. gravity b effects time.
for me it appears you may not understand this stuff like one may think.
 
krash661 said:
how does distance equal zero when you're adding mass and space time eventually appears ?
the singularity itself has distance in a 3d form.
also you may not understand the fighting between energy and gravity.
also how is time not an element in GR if it pertains to gravity. gravity b effects time.
for me it appears you may not understand this stuff like one may think.
Click to expand...

Yes you get it Krash661, like I asked Emily in the other thread, where is the singularity located if there is no time and space to plot it's coordinates?

The answer you say is nowhere but the question is not where is nowhere but what is nowhere...hmm
 
paddoboy said:
There was no legitimate scientific question, only some pseudoscientific claim, that appears to be in the wrong section.
One could even term it gobbledygook or word salad.
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I was talking specifically about the singularity Paddo.

Ok Paddo remove the the singularity what is left?
Add the singularity what is it emerging from?

Obviously quantum fluctuations but to be more specific what is the place that exist beyond time and space? What is the place that contains the singularity. This is a universal debacle of explainations, as I am sure you know this. Because a finite mind or tool cannot percieve "it" doesn't make it non existent.
 
paddoboy said:
I do not really know what you are adding. It all appears as nonsense, and an alternative hypothesis or pseudoscience to boot.
I believe you are in the wrong section.
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I think I can help "fix" Wellwisher's thought experiment:

On the frame that is moving at relativistic speeds, install a remote sensing robot capable of dribbling a basketball if the user at the other end of a telelink is able to provide approximate timing for the action. Assume that continuous two way video surveillance of the robot dribbling the basketball and the stationary observer in control of its actions is possible.

The stationary observer is going to remark something like: "Gee, that basketball sure bounces slowly!" Someone watching the monitor trained on the stationary observer from the moving spaceship would remark: "How can he move to control the basketball robot that quickly?"

That isn't nonsense; it's real science. This is the way time, energy, and bound energy that is matter behave, according to SR. For the following description of what happens, assume that basketballs may be "dribbled" with or without gravity, which is not much of a stretch, really.

Time dilation of the bouncing rate of the basketball happens because of an energy Doppler shift which begins by shifting the energy spectrum of every molecule in the single direction of near relativistic propagation / travel. Because matter is simply bound energy, it cannot fail to distribute that unidirectional Doppler shift into every possible direction of propagation as "time dilation" that is both uniform and independent of the directions things move in the accelerated frame. Every process slows down, including the dribbling of a basketball, because this also entails the propagation speed of bound energy.

This is another good thought experiment that aptly demonstrates the folly of expecting that there is anything like the Pythagorean theorem relating space and time as Minkowski suggested. There is only time and energy. Space is only an illusion manifested by the propagation of virtual and real energy, bound or unbound, in every direction in which it may propagate. Or to put it another way: space may alternately be flattened to appear as flat in any direction you may wish to travel, if you only go fast enough relative to the something else you wish to appear flat. This is not how a geometric solid behaves, but it is definitely how matter we generally consider to be solid does.

Wellwisher, either we are both cranks, or else you are really catching on. Don't stop thinking about it that way. I can't even imagine the universe any other way now. You must also understand that propagating energy is not to be identified with time itself, for it is most certainly not the same thing.
 
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BrianHarwarespecialist said:
Obviously quantum fluctuations but to be more specific what is the place that exist beyond, time and space? What is the place that contains the singularity. This is a universal debacle as I am sure you know this. Because a finite mind or tool cannot percieve "it" doesn't make it non existent.
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A Singularity is simply beyond the parameters of our current models to describe. A future validated QGT may help resolve that dilemma.
 
paddoboy said:
A Singularity is simply beyond the parameters of our current models to describe. A future validated QGT may help resolve that dilemma.
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Why do you think the singularity is beyond us Paddo? There should be a reasonable answer that makes sense, but I think once it emerges it will.
 
danshawen said:
I think I can help "fix" this one. On the frame that is moving at relativistic speeds, install a remote sensing robot capable of dribbling a basketball if the user at the other end of a telelink is able to provide approximate timing for the action. Assume that continuous two way video surveillance of the robot dribbling the basketball and the stationary observer in control of its actions is possible.

The stationary observer is going to remark something like: "Gee, that basketball sure bounces slowly!" Someone watching the monitor trained on the stationary observer from the moving spaceship would remark: "How can he move to control the basketball robot that quickly?"

That isn't nonsense; it's real science. This is the way time, energy, and bound energy that is matter behave, according to SR. For the following description of what happens, assume that basketballs may be "dribbled" with or without gravity, which is not much of a stretch, really.

Time dilation of the bouncing rate of the basketball happens because of an energy Doppler shift which begins by shifting the energy spectrum of every molecule in the single direction of near relativistic propagation / travel. Because matter is simply bound energy, it cannot fail to distribute that unidirectional Doppler shift into every possible direction of propagation as "time dilation" that is both uniform and independent of the directions things move in the accelerated frame. Every process slows down, including the dribbling of a basketball, because this also entails the propagation speed of bound energy.

This is another good thought experiment that aptly demonstrates the folly of expecting that there is anything like the Pythagorean theorem relating space and time as Minkowski suggested. There is only time and energy. Space is only an illusion manifested by the propagation of virtual and real energy, bound or unbound, in every direction in which it may propagate. Or to put it another way: space may alternately be flattened to appear as flat in any direction you may wish to travel, if you only go fast enough relative to the something else you wish to appear flat. This is not how a geometric solid behaves, but it is definitely how matter we generally consider to be solid does.

Wellwisher, either we are both cranks, or else you are really catching on. Don't stop thinking about it that way. I can't even imagine the universe any other way now. You must also understand that propagating energy is not to be identified with time itself, for it is most certainly not the same thing.
Click to expand...

No one is a crank some of the people considered the stupidest are actually brilliant, it's just that there will always be a communication debacle. I like that word debacle for some reason that explains the excessive usage.
 
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