Germanwings Tragedy - Is it now all about the money?

[Kittamaru]

at this point, it seems something is amiss with the line of "reasoning" that lead to that story...

 

[Quantum Quack]

Indeed - it's called being allergic to bullshit. I suffer the same "compulsion".

There was no "crazed computer". You have not one iota of an idea of what you are suggesting when you spout nonsense about putting "ransomware" on a flight computer... it's absolute bullshit. Is it impossible? Of course not. However, it's not like you can take the same Moneypak ransomeware that would affect a consumer Windows PC and just plop it on a flight computer running a purpose-built set of software.

Maybe you need to have a quick course in IT security and you will find the following comment credible:

"As a software engineer that has very good connections to security experts it is safe to assume that no system is impenetrable.
This was one of the older planes, 23yrs I believe. It takes 12 years to design and build a plane. So at the time the technology today was not even in infancy - it was generations behind.
In the same way that I couldn't hack the wright brothers plane with technology this makes it unlikely.

Any aircraft that is fly by wire can be physically hacked if you have access to it's cabling. Imagine just cutting the wire, a form of hacking. Take this further and see if you can use the wire to do something else.

There would be parts of this aircraft that would be updated with newer tech. This could be the attack area. Often closed systems are not as closed as you think. The other lapse is normally things not deemed to be critical, so no need for security. Both can be utilised.

Although it's true that aircraft systems are extremely well protected I think it's safe to say that with enough resource they are hackable. There hasn't been a open system yet that has withstood a serious attack other than pulling the plug." ~anon

I would imagine that hacking the altitude/speed control interface would be a piece of cake, simply replacing the pilots control with your own. ( like replacing your PC keyboard with a remote one... sitting on a 12 year old's study desk in Russia for example.)
If you believe that any dynamic digital interface is un-hackable you would have to be daft.

 

[Quantum Quack]

How do you know they are replicas?

Study the video footage supplied by ISIL...and have a look at similar objects made of "Plaster of Paris"

I know you are lying.

I don't care whether you think I am or not... perhaps one day you can ask him yourself. That situation is developing...

Not all of it burnt. And when a plane smashes like that, solid objects are usually pulverised. Things like clothes and even sometimes some suitcases survive intact.

and where is the impact crater for such a violent hitting of the ground?
there is no impact crater...
Also missing engine and other high density/strength structures. where do they go...? Melted with unburnt clothing next to them? sure...
What do you think the jet engines are made of? Aluminum? Use your head for a change and think about the central shafts of the turbines and all the other high tensile strength components. And then ask the questions you need to ask about the crash zone.

Because the news release was about the flight data recorder that had just been found and they had started to analyse. And that was all it was about.

The previous press release discussed the voice recorder.

So what is your point, exactly?

There is no mention of the voice recorder on the BEA web site. See post #421 screen shot thumbs

I am fairly certain that the voices in your head do not count.

not as loud as the voices in yours I bet...

 

[Quantum Quack]

If they wanted it (the FAC) off, why would they reboot it?

Because rebooting the FAC would reinstall the software afresh...and clear any glitches that it apparently was demonstrating. ( assuming the glitch was not Hard coded into the boot software in the first place)

 

[Quantum Quack]

Come on guys you can do better than this. So far you have not shot down one single speculation... only asinine ridicule and confusing memory lapses ( re: Billvon) demonstrating your own esteem issues.
Just calling a spade a spade...

When you actually get interested in the veracity of media reports about the Germanwings Flight, let me know.

 

[Kittamaru]

Maybe you need to have a quick course in IT security and you will find the following comment credible:

"As a software engineer that has very good connections to security experts it is safe to assume that no system is impenetrable.
This was one of the older planes, 23yrs I believe. It takes 12 years to design and build a plane. So at the time the technology today was not even in infancy - it was generations behind.
In the same way that I couldn't hack the wright brothers plane with technology this makes it unlikely.

Any aircraft that is fly by wire can be physically hacked if you have access to it's cabling. Imagine just cutting the wire, a form of hacking. Take this further and see if you can use the wire to do something else.

There would be parts of this aircraft that would be updated with newer tech. This could be the attack area. Often closed systems are not as closed as you think. The other lapse is normally things not deemed to be critical, so no need for security. Both can be utilised.

Although it's true that aircraft systems are extremely well protected I think it's safe to say that with enough resource they are hackable. There hasn't been a open system yet that has withstood a serious attack other than pulling the plug." ~anon

I would imagine that hacking the altitude/speed control interface would be a piece of cake, simply replacing the pilots control with your own. ( like replacing your PC keyboard with a remote one... sitting on a 12 year old's study desk in Russia for example.)
If you believe that any dynamic digital interface is un-hackable you would have to be daft.

Indeed, no software is impenetrable... however, as I said - you would have to unfettered access to these systems, a high degree of training in the (presumably trade-secret) operating software, etc.

Also missing engine and other high density/strength structures. where do they go...? Melted with unburnt clothing next to them? sure...
What do you think the jet engines are made of? Aluminum? Use your head for a change and think about the central shafts of the turbines and all the other high tensile strength components. And then ask the questions you need to ask about the crash zone.

Actually... yeah. Aluminum is a pretty common one - aluminum, titanium, nickel, etc, depending on the parts. And indeed, most of the skin and frame of the aircraft is made of aluminum.

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Jet-Engine.html

Strong, lightweight, corrosion-resistant, thermally stable components are essential to the viability of any aircraft design, and certain materials have been developed to provide these and other desirable traits. Titanium, first created in sufficiently pure form for commercial use during the 1950s, is utilized in the most critical engine components. While it is very difficult to shape, its extreme hardness renders it strong when subjected to intense heat. To improve its malleability titanium is often alloyed with other metals such as nickel and aluminum. All three metals are prized by the aerospace industry because of their relatively high strength/weight ratio.

The intake fan at the front of the engine must be extremely strong so that it doesn't fracture when large birds and other debris are sucked into its blades; it is thus made of a titanium alloy. The intermediate compressor is made from aluminum, while the high pressure section nearer the intense heat of the combustor is made of nickel and titanium alloys better able to withstand extreme temperatures. The combustion chamber is also made of nickel and titanium alloys, and the turbine blades, which must endure the most intense heat of the engine, consist of nickel-titanium-aluminum alloys. Often, both the combustion chamber and the turbine receive special ceramic coatings that better enable them to resist heat. The inner duct of the exhaust system is crafted from titanium, while the outer exhaust duct is made from composites—synthetic fibers held together with resins. Although fiberglass was used for years, it is now being supplanted by Kevlar, which is even lighter and stronger. The thrust reverser consists of titanium alloy.

Because rebooting the FAC would reinstall the software afresh...and clear any glitches that it apparently was demonstrating. ( assuming the glitch was not Hard coded into the boot software in the first place)

I wasn't aware that when I rebooted my computer, it reinstalled the software fresh...

Come on guys you can do better than this. So far you have not shot down one single speculation... only asinine ridicule and confusing memory lapses ( re: Billvon) demonstrating your own esteem issues.
Just calling a spade a spade...

When you actually get interested in the veracity of media reports about the Germanwings Flight, let me know.

Perhaps that is because we, who prefer logic and reason, would much rather wait for the experts, who have spent years studying and training and are intimately familiar with both the aircraft and aviation accidents, to compile their research and produce an official report... rather than grasping at straws, making wild-ass theories, and generally concocting conspiracy theories about it...

 

[Quantum Quack]

So far a non-exhaustive list of issues:

• Stewardess ex-girlfriend vanishes after making damning testimony to BILD
• Alleged mobile phone video of end moments of flight proves to be false after generating much world attention.
• Serious inconsistencies in just about all media reports.
• The use of actors in interviews. All video shows serious questions about staging grief. ( ie. no tears)
  
• BEA web site shows no record of having received the VRBB.
• Major discrepancies about crash site.
• No impact crater.
• No engine components except one convenient forward rotor support housing structure.
• Over zealous approach by the French prosecutor in uncharacteristically condemning a man before he has solid evidence to do so.
• No evidence that the co-pilot had any violent tendencies through out his entire life.
• No evidence of any fights, maliciousness, or anything that would lead one to believe he was capable of hurting a fly let a lone 150 people.

and the list is continuing to grow..

 

[Quantum Quack]

Indeed, no software is impenetrable... however, as I said - you would have to unfettered access to these systems, a high degree of training in the (presumably trade-secret) operating software, etc.

ah so you concede that the software is hackable?
Yes of course it would take someone with specialized knowledge of the systems. someone like a maintenance support team on the ground servicing and repairing the craft ...yes?

Maybe you missed the data that the craft in question had just been maintained on the ground 24 hours prior to the flight being undertaken for a trivial noise issue over an elevator I believe...?

Maybe also you forget or simply didn't know, that here in Australia we recently had a spat of 5-6 "return to base" incidences in an inexplicably short time period ( over 6 days I think) involving 5-6 different craft.
All incidences were of a relative trivial nature..and involved inexplicable faulty maintenance. ( still being investigated today)
*return to base means that the plane had to turn round and return to point of departure

So yes the potential for highly qualified ground support team tampering with flight systems is quite feasible.

Actually... yeah. Aluminum is a pretty common one - aluminum, titanium, nickel, etc, depending on the parts. And indeed, most of the skin and frame of the aircraft is made of aluminum.

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Jet-Engine.html

so you agree, hardened parts appear to be non-existent at the crash site. Like Titanium Fan blades.
Why not?

I wasn't aware that when I rebooted my computer, it reinstalled the software fresh...

In most cases it does... well done!
The video implies you are upset.. So you should be...

Perhaps that is because we, who prefer logic and reason, would much rather wait for the experts, who have spent years studying and training and are intimately familiar with both the aircraft and aviation accidents, to compile their research and produce an official report... rather than grasping at straws, making wild-ass theories, and generally concocting conspiracy theories about it...

then perhaps you could benefit from doing as you preach . Use a bit of common sense and ask the questions you need to ask...

When it comes to the sort of money involved here my trust is held very close...
The safety of a huge number of passengers currently flying and yet to fly is not to be presumed.

 

[Kittamaru]

ah so you concede that the software is hackable?
Yes of course it would take someone with specialized knowledge of the systems. someone like a maintenance support team on the ground servicing and repairing the craft ...yes?

Most likely not, given the complexity of the software and hardware - you would likely have a specialist for each.

Maybe you missed the data that the craft in question had just been maintained on the ground 24 hours prior to the flight being undertaken for a trivial noise issue over an elevator I believe...?

Trivial...? Please explain to me what a "trivial" noise would be? Any unusual noise should be investigated... after all, peoples LIVES are on the line.

Maybe also you forget or simply didn't know that here in Australia we had a spat of 5-6 return to base incidences in an inexplicably short time period ( over 6 days I think) involving 5-6 different craft.
All incidences were of a relative trivial nature..and involved inexplicable faulty maintenance. ( still being investigated today)

So yes the potential for highly qualified ground support team tampering with flight systems is quite feasible.

That is quite a leap to make, to go from a simple mistake in a maintenance procedure to intentional sabotage... do you happen to have any actual evidence to back this up, or is this just more random supposition with no supporting evidence?

so you agree, hardened parts appear to be non-existent at the crash site.
Why not?

Because a "hardened part" is typically quite brittle as well... what are you expecting to find after an aircraft plowed into the dirt at several hundred MPH?

Have you ever seen the effect of a car impacting a wall at 100-150 MPH? Aside from the roll cage, which is purpose-built to survive an impact, there isn't a whole lot left... the car literally disintegrated.

In most cases it does... well done!

Does it now? So what happens to all the other software you've installed? Why is it when a computer gets a virus, you can't just reboot it? What about all the other data written to the hard drive?

I dare say, this is quite funny, listening to you... after all, I'm only a CNIT graduate who has worked with computers, ranging from IT Helpdesk to designing and building custom rigs to, currently, global network administration, information security and infrastructure, network design and deployment, and intrusion detection. No doubt your education, training, and real-world experience vastly overshadows my meager qualifications in the world of computer technology. Alas, my degrees, certifications, and years spent "in the field" are nothing compared to your apparent innate knowledge! What a pity!

then perhaps you could benefit from doing as you preach . Use a bit of common sense and ask the questions you need to ask...

When it comes to the sort of money involved here my trust is held very close...

When it comes to the sort of technical expertise, mechanical aptitude, and general training and experience required to piece together a tragedy like this, I prefer to bank on years of experience rather than the "intuition and trust of some random armchair warrior"

 

[Bells]

So far a non-exhaustive list of issues:

• Stewardess ex-girlfriend vanishes after making damning testimony to BILD

Who can blame her? Probably trying to avoid the media and weirdos who think it would be fun and amusing to contact her

Alleged mobile phone video of end moments of flight proves to be false after generating much world attention.

Haven't really heard much of them. I am sure if some of the data can be recovered from the dozens of phones found at the crash sight, it will be used to help in the investigation.

Serious inconsistencies in just about all media reports.

They have been consistent on the main points.

The of actors in interviews. All video shows serious questions about staging grief. ( ie. no tears)

You are yet to provide actual links to this. Just some image with a breaking news headline at the bottom - which could have been of any show on CNN with that breaking news headline appearing at the bottom with the two women in the image taken out of context and misrepresented by you. I asked you for a link to this video and you did not provide it. In fact, you avoided it altogether.

And frankly, this is a new low for you.

BEA web site shows no record of having received the VRBB.

Then you clearly cannot read. Or you are lying. Which is it?

INFORMATION ON 31 MARCH 2015
The Safety Investigation is continuing.

It will be focused on:

• Describing more precisely, from the technical perspective, the history of the flight. This work will be based on detailed analysis of data from the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) as well as analysis of any flight parameter data that may be available.
• Studying the systemic weaknesses might possibily have led to this aviation disaster or other similar events. Within this context, the Safety Investigation will be oriented towards the cockpit door locking system logic and cockpit access and exit procedures, as well as the criteria and procedures applied to detect specific psychological profiles.

Why would the BAE discuss analysing the CVR if they hadn't received it?

Major discrepancies about crash site.

Which you are yet to prove.

No impact crater.

Smashing into the side of a mountain will do that.

What? Are you now going to claim that there was no plane crash and that it was all fake?

No engine components except one convenient forward rotor support housing structure.

Smashing into a mountain will do that.

Over zealous approach by the French prosecutor in uncharacteristically condemning a man before he has solid evidence to do so.

The evidence is solid. From a legal standpoint, it is certainly solid.

No evidence that the co-pilot had any violent tendencies through out his entire life.

But there is a history of depression and thoughts of suicide.

No evidence of any fights, maliciousness, or anything that would lead one to believe he was capable of hurting a fly let a lone 150 people.

And? What does that have to do with his suicidal tendencies?

and the list is continuing to grow..

Only in your head and that does not amount to much.

I don't care whether you think I am or not... perhaps one day you can ask him yourself. That situation is developing...

Of course it is.

Do situations like this develop in your head often?

Maybe you missed the data that the craft in question had just been maintained on the ground 24 hours prior to the flight being undertaken for a trivial noise issue over an elevator I believe...?
Maybe also you forget or simply didn't know that here in Australia we had a spat of 5-6 return to base incidences in an inexplicably short time period ( over 6 days I think) involving 5-6 different craft.
All incidences were of a relative trivial nature..and involved inexplicable faulty maintenance. ( still being investigated today)

So yes the potential for highly qualified ground support team tampering with flight systems is quite feasible.

So the hackers somehow managed to gain control of the co-pilot's body and mind and had him fly the plane into the mountain?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Most likely not, given the complexity of the software and hardware - you would likely have a specialist for each.

but it is feasible given, especially given the spat of terrorist activity in recent times.

Especially the Charlie Hebdo attack on 7th Jan 2015

Trivial...? Please explain to me what a "trivial" noise would be? Any unusual noise should be investigated... after all, peoples LIVES are on the line.

It was reported as such yes...

That is quite a leap to make, to go from a simple mistake in a maintenance procedure to intentional sabotage... do you happen to have any actual evidence to back this up, or is this just more random supposition with no supporting evidence?

but it is feasible yes?

Because a "hardened part" is typically quite brittle as well... what are you expecting to find after an aircraft plowed into the dirt at several hundred MPH?

Have you ever seen the effect of a car impacting a wall at 100-150 MPH? Aside from the roll cage, which is purpose-built to survive an impact, there isn't a whole lot left... the car literally disintegrated.

normally the crank shaft and engine block survive. Cast iron, hardened steel, and titanium are pretty indestructable if you have a look at other crash scenes for comparison if you wish to confirm.

In this case the FDBB survived then why not the hardened shafts?
You will notice the images of the VRBB show a VRBB badly damaged but apparently useable to BEA after hitting the ground at "several hundred MPH?... so go figure your logic...

Does it look pulverized to you?
See any burn marks, soot deposits, melting?

I don't. Maybe I need to change my glasses , wait... ok... nope same thing...

Does it now? So what happens to all the other software you've installed? Why is it when a computer gets a virus, you can't just reboot it? What about all the other data written to the hard drive?

I dare say, this is quite funny, listening to you... after all, I'm only a CNIT graduate who has worked with computers, ranging from IT Helpdesk to designing and building custom rigs to, currently, global network administration, information security and infrastructure, network design and deployment, and intrusion detection. No doubt your education, training, and real-world experience vastly overshadows my meager qualifications in the world of computer technology. Alas, my degrees, certifications, and years spent "in the field" are nothing compared to your apparent innate knowledge! What a pity!

Oh please if you were as you say you would be arguing much more rationally.
Of course the OS is rebooted and of course the Virus (if any) is/was hiding in the files that support the OS.
The captain of this flight AA8501, didn't know whether the FAC had a virus or not.. He was simply doing what his Military training required him to do. Reboot the system and start again...why else would he disconnect the FAC... just for fun perhaps?

When it comes to the sort of technical expertise, mechanical aptitude, and general training and experience required to piece together a tragedy like this, I prefer to bank on years of experience rather than the "intuition and trust of some random armchair warrior"

oh ..please.. don't forget the political influences and the huge amount of money involved in this... ( Consumer confidence in air flight is enormously important. )
Given that the investigation is never open to independent review and pubic scrutiny the fact that they are specialist works against them. You know .."the more you know, the more power you have, the more potentially corrupt you become"

*note also BEA and Airbus involvement in :
Air Canada flight 624 March 29th 2015 crash

There is no protection against this potential as far as I can see.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Who can blame her? Probably trying to avoid the media and weirdos who think it would be fun and amusing to contact her

No evidence she existed in the first place a pure fabrication that you are blindly willing to accept...
Gosh have you ever heard a cliche like:

'One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it"

Shakespeare would roll over in his grave... make me wanna puke every time I read it...

Haven't really heard much of them. I am sure if some of the data can be recovered from the dozens of phones found at the crash sight, it will be used to help in the investigation.

been refuted by the prosecutors office... you need to keep up...

They have been consistent on the main points.

no they haven't

You are yet to provide actual links to this. Just some image with a breaking news headline at the bottom - which could have been of any show on CNN with that breaking news headline appearing at the bottom with the two women in the image taken out of context and misrepresented by you. I asked you for a link to this video and you did not provide it. In fact, you avoided it altogether.

And frankly, this is a new low for you.

Plenty of evidence of acting in many videos which one do you want me to link to?

Then you clearly cannot read. Or you are lying. Which is it?

INFORMATION ON 31 MARCH 2015
The Safety Investigation is continuing.

It will be focused on:

• Describing more precisely, from the technical perspective, the history of the flight. This work will be based on detailed analysis of data from the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) as well as analysis of any flight parameter data that may be available.
• Studying the systemic weaknesses might possibily have led to this aviation disaster or other similar events. Within this context, the Safety Investigation will be oriented towards the cockpit door locking system logic and cockpit access and exit procedures, as well as the criteria and procedures applied to detect specific psychological profiles.

Why would the BAE discuss analysing the CVR if they hadn't received it?

because it is procedural and not stating it has the CVR, as a later release does regarding the FDR
Nor does it mention any of the detail that the media is apparently making use of, or didn't you notice?
Why would the BEA edit the page to remove direct reference to them having the CVR?
Do you think?

The rest of your post is undeserving of comment..( actually the first parts are too but I thought you deserved some sort of response and maybe there is hope for you yet!)

 

[Quantum Quack]

In fact the supposed CVR is the most damning evidence I have seen.

Everything else is more or less pulverized, disintegrated, shredded including engines and yet here we a have a CVR more or less intact....
Uhm.. Please explain?

 

[billvon]

In fact the supposed CVR is the most damning evidence I have seen.
Everything else is more or less pulverized, disintegrated, shredded including engines and yet here we a have a CVR more or less intact....

You call that "more or less intact?"

Uhm.. Please explain?

The CVR is designed to survive when everything else is pulverized, disintegrated and shredded. And even so the impact was so great that the CVR was rendered a ball of twisted metal. It is amazing that anything else survived at all.

 

[billvon]

Trivial...? Please explain to me what a "trivial" noise would be? Any unusual noise should be investigated... after all, peoples LIVES are on the line.

Eh, if they didn't investigate it, he'd be claiming "why did they not care that there was a serious problem with this critical flight surface? The only explanation was that they knew it would crash soon!"

That is quite a leap to make, to go from a simple mistake in a maintenance procedure to intentional sabotage... do you happen to have any actual evidence to back this up, or is this just more random supposition with no supporting evidence?

It is his MO.

When it comes to the sort of technical expertise, mechanical aptitude, and general training and experience required to piece together a tragedy like this, I prefer to bank on years of experience rather than the "intuition and trust of some random armchair warrior"

But he does have both Dunning and Krueger going for him.

 

[Quantum Quack]

You call that "more or less intact?"

The CVR is designed to survive when everything else is pulverized, disintegrated and shredded. And even so the impact was so great that the CVR was rendered a ball of twisted metal. It is amazing that anything else survived at all.

It is rather strange isn't it that it survived but hard engine parts didn't.

Also in reviewing all the images of the crash site no images confirm this to be actually at or from the crash site.
Where as there are images of the FDR being extracted from the crash site. That appear to be genuine. Appears to be inside a cast iron housing, which may explain why it survived.
The CVR looks like simple plate steel construction 2-3 mill gauge I would guess, with a possibly cast iron/forged steel "closed at one end cylinder" shaped housing.

So is this CVR actually the one from the plane as reported?

Does any one have evidence that shows this CVR is actually genuine regarding this issue?
Are we talking about a huge media beat up?

 

[billvon]

It is rather strange isn't it that it survived but hard engine parts didn't.

No, it's not. The CVR was not spinning at thousands of RPM's at impact, nor was it at hundreds of degrees, nor was it being fed fuel, nor are engines designed to survive crashes. CVR's are nonrotating, are not full of flammable fuel, they are mounted in the most protected parts of the plane, hardened and specifically designed to survive impacts that pulverize the rest of the plane.

So what happened is exactly was is expected, and the CVR functioned as designed (barely.)

 

[Quantum Quack]

No, it's not. The CVR was not spinning at thousands of RPM's at impact, nor was it at hundreds of degrees, nor was it being fed fuel, nor are engines designed to survive crashes. CVR's are nonrotating, are not full of flammable fuel, they are mounted in the most protected parts of the plane, hardened and specifically designed to survive impacts that pulverize the rest of the plane.

So what happened is exactly was is expected, and the CVR functioned as designed (barely.)

You can feed your BS to others but the questions remain unanswered.
Most of the housing is plate steel any ways and appears to be unpulverzied.
Located near the front of the plane is my guess, and had to survive head on impact...


hee hee including the damn impregnable security door....
next lead...
any one find that damn anti explosive, high security door in the pulverized wreckage with the unburnt clothing....

 

[billvon]

Most of the housing is plate steel any ways and appears to be unpulverzied.

It is bent almost in half - and that is one of the two strongest, best hardened devices in the entire airplane.

Again, the picture is an excellent demonstration why the rest of the aircraft was pulverized.

 

[Quantum Quack]

It is bent almost in half - and that is one of the two strongest, best hardened devices in the entire airplane.

Again, the picture is an excellent demonstration why the rest of the aircraft was pulverized.

oh dear... if you believe that then you believe in anything... "sigh"