RC
Very glib, Grumpy, but unfortunately mainstream physics has not yet identified 'coupling mechanism' with spacetime that allows mass of a planet to 'curve' its surrounding spacetime.
At least I finally got you to understand that spacetime curvature is a real property of the Universe. That we don't know everything does not mean that we know nothing. Spacetime is a real thing, Relativity theory is our description of how we see that real thing(spacetime)behave. It is not an overlay and despite the fact that it is a construct, it is an accurate construct that describes reality. It is a very accurate map indeed.
Nor has it yet explained how universally 'flat' geodesics are 'curved' and how 'spacetime' couples to infalling masses to redirect that mass from otherwise 'flat' spacetime geodesic path.
That the Universe is referred to as "flat" has nothing to do with Relativity or spacetime. It is a measurement of the density of the Universe and if it will collapse or not, flat is on the cusp of those two possibilities. Spacetime IS warped(bent) by mass. Whether it is gravitons or Higgs boson that causes it is irrelevant to that fact(it's probably the Higgs field).
Let alone yet explained how 'expanding spacetime' couples to galaxies mass to 'grab' them and 'take/push' them ALONG with 'expanding spacetime' at whatever 'expansion speed'.
The expansion is centered on every single point of spacetime, galaxies don't need to be "pulled along" because they aren't going anywhere due to that expansion. The expansion is happening everywhere all the time, there is no inertial coupling to matter for that.
That is why it is "apparent" velocity, not actual speed through local spacetime. They are relatively stationary in their local spacetime, we are relatively stationary in ours, but since all of spacetime is expanding the cumulative expansion of all the spacetime between us gives us apparent velocity. They actually are receding from us at high speed thus the redshift, but are stationary to local spacetime(just like us).
Perhaps until that has happened, all those 'glib' non-explanatory 'comic book version' fairy tales should have a 'disclaimer' like that above attached whenever anyone is tempted to just post these 'chestnut' ad hoc copouts-in-lieu-of-real-explanations without any understanding of the reality implications/limitations of same?
You haven't learned anything in a long time, have you? Everything I posted is good solid science, your posts are just woo, sad.
What "spacetime container"? There is NO such thing in Relativity. Only 'spacetime' CONSTRUCT INVENTED by Einstein/mathematicians as purely abstract REPRESENTATION of the dynamics observed
Spacetime is the reality that Relativity describes, it exists, I have demonstrated that and you won't address it where I posted it so her it comes
My whole point was to observe that the clocks varied in time rates. That direct observation implied that the light between the mirrors moved across energy-space differently compared to each others location in GR context. Period.
The whole point is that a photon takes longer to travel a bent path through spacetime at c than it would to go straight between the same two points(coordinate distance), and that gravity bends spacetime in proportion to the strength of the gravity field. The two clocks see different gravity field strength, the spacetime bends more in the lower clock, so it registers slower clicks.
Energy-space is an oxymoron, stop using it, it makes you look ignorant.
Whatever 'interpretation' is to be put upon the REASON why that differing light motion/rate is what the discussion between Farsight and you et al is all about.
The light moves at c. It is only the coordinate speed that changes, not the speed of the light c. Just like every one of the non-cranks have been saying. Farsight has been wrong from the start, he rejects both postulates of Relativity.
Your contention is 'spacetime path contraction' or some such abstract 'spacetime' construct-based 'interpretation of the REAL DIRECT OBSERVABLE FACT that the clocks DO indicate the light IS moving differently compared to the other clock.
No, light always travel exactly at c in all frames, between all frames and from all frames. Period. It is the coordinate speed that changes because light takes the bent path of spacetime not the straight path between those same coordinates, the bent path is longer the further into a gravity field you go. But light travels at c all the way down. Spacetime is a real thing in the Universe, it actually affects reality. The theory of Relativity is not an interpretation, it is a description of the real behavior of the Universe itself and the interaction of it's properties. Constant lightspeed is so well established that no one has yet made a portable instrument to measure it, it would only indicate one speed(no matter how accurate you make it)in all circumstances(IE it would be useless).
Farsight says that it is light speed that slowed.
Yes, and that means Farsight doesn't know a damn thing about physics or Relativity(not to mention the history of the investigation of light).
So your discussion is at the stage of you and he trying to support your respective 'interpretation' of the observed light behavior variation.
When your "interpretation" requires the violation of a well established physical fact(c), your interpretation immediately and completely fails(at least as a description of reality). Our description of the Universe is valid, it explains the time dilation without violating that well established physical property. In fact, the whole of Relativity came into being to explain that well established fact(c). Constant lightspeed is the basis for Relativity. Relativity explains that fact.
In the real GR case before you of the two clocks in the room you are standing in, there are no '[measured' sped of light.
The clock is based on the coordinate speed of light between two mirrors, it is the operating principle of the clock. That is what the clock measures. It is the differences in the coordinate speed between those two mirrors that causes the slower clock. So,the only thing we are talking about is that coordinate speed between the mirrorsand the actual speed of light.
Farsight says that they are the same, that light slows down. Well, in physics in general and in Relativity we have known that light only travels at c for almost two hundred years, with not one instance in all that time where that has been shown NOT to be true. Farsight is therefore wrong, the actual speed of light does not slow down, he's missing something in his understanding. Einstein says light travels the zero energy geodesic through spacetime, if spacetime is bent, so is a photons path. Gravity bends spacetime and light follows that bent path, which is longer than the straight coordinate path, thus the clock slows down under acceleration because the spacetime it is in gets bent more. The coordinate speed of light gets slower even though the actual speed of light through spacetime does not change, it remains c.
Bent spacetime due to gravity doesn't just affect clocks, we use it as a lens to see distant galaxies. Interestingly, this setup above also illustrates the difference between coordinate speed and lightspeed through bent spacetime. The starlight passing straight through the galaxy cluster will arrive very close to the coordinate speed between Earth and the most distant blue galaxy, while the bent spacetime paths on either side of the center galaxy cluster will be time delayed due to their light having traveled a longer path through bent space, even though the light itself traveled all three paths at exactly c. The time differences will give you a very accurate measurement of the mass in the galaxy cluster doing the lensing. The time delays between the center one and the outer ones will then give you a very accurate distance to the further galaxy, using calculus that Newton could do. In Cosmology our clocks are huge. Earth replaces the detector and the distant blue galaxy replaces the emitter, the galaxy cluster is the acceleration and the difference between the times is caused by the same effect as happens in our clock.
You can even see the bent spacetime, curved by the gravity field and illuminated by the lensed light passing through it that focuses on Earth.
Notice all those bent arcs? Illuminated bent spacetime.
Address this post or admit you cannot.
Grumpy
