Asperger's Syndrome

[spidergoat]

Show me. It is clear that AS has some definite disadvantages, and no significant advantages over neurotypicals.

The advantages are so significant, there is now a Danish employment agency that seeks to connect companies with autistic people.
http://specialistpeople.com/

 

[Syne]

The advantages are so significant, there is now a Danish employment agency that seeks to connect companies with autistic people.
http://specialistpeople.com/

There is nothing new about organizations finding useful employment of the disabled/disadvantaged.They all require special accommodation.

 

[spidergoat]

There is nothing new about organizations finding useful employment of the disabled/disadvantaged.They all require special accommodation.

But employers are looking for the specific advantages that autistic people can offer, they aren't doing it out of charity.

 

[Futilitist]

duplicate post again due to bug again

 

[Futilitist]

Here are some comments made by Syne concerning Asperger's syndrome that were made on my now closed thread on the evolution of religion. I have included some of my answers as well.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?131044-A-new-theory-on-the-evolution-of-religion

Regardless of the reasons or excuses (Asperger/autism), I agree.

Great, this thread has veered completely off-topic into Aspie apologetics. All praise mediocrity.

All the more reason to end this thread.

Your personal opinion on this has been noted more than once. I think some of the others are enjoying the thread. Thank you again, though.

I'm pretty sure we will get back to the main topic of the thread when people feel like it, being that this is a free and open discussion. Try being a little more playful with the concepts. Science discussions can be fun if you try it this way.

There is no science discussion where evidence is completely lacking. And yes, I am sure you enjoy the Aspie commiserating.

And I do enjoy the "Aspie" commiserating. I find it quite a refreshing change of pace. I think only about 4% of the male population is Asperger's. It is unclear how many women have the trait because it expresses itself so differently females. But my ex, the mother of my young daughter, is a female Aspergean. She has some wicked math, art, and music skills. I met her when she came to do an internship at Hanson Robotics. We "Aspies" have a tendency to find each other. My father is Aspergean. My ex's father has some noticeable traits. My mother possibly does, too, but she does not think so. Some, like me, posit mating streams. But it is basically a club with a very exclusive membership. When we do manage to find each other, we tend to celebrate a bit. We get kind of lonely sometimes, though not as much as neurotypicals tend to, and we get a major bum rap for being seen as lacking "empathy" for it. I don't think you read the wrong planet link I posted.

I don't know if my daughter is Asperger's yet. She is 19 months old and very smart. I hope she is Asperger's.

I hope she is Asperger's.

That is the most depressing thing I have ever read.

I find this comment highly offensive on many levels. It is insulting to me, my daughter, and all Aspergean's and their parents. I don't think anyone will be impressed with this comment. You are shooting yourself in the foot on this, IMHO. But carry on if you must. Are we having a mimetic rivalry?

I find you wishing your child to have "significant difficulties in social interaction, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests" to be dreadfully depressing. No fit parent would wish such difficulties on their child. I wish better for your child than you seem to. You really should not project your own need to excuse/celebrate your condition onto a child.

That is just sick.

I am the one trying very hard to get the thread back on topic. Please don't punish me for others behavior here. Asperger's does relate very closely to the topic in any case. I suggest that the Jesus character of the bible seems to have many Aspergean traits, making him a natural scapegoat. This is a very serious idea and not meant to inflame anyone. There is no major fuss going on that warrants any thread splitting at this point, IMHO. I think the OP topic will return quite naturally.

And as you can imagine, I don't prefer to think of the syndrome as a disorder that needs to be cured.

I will make no further comments about Asperger's syndrome at this time. If others continue to, blame them, not me. I have been up all night and I really do need to get some sleep now. Thank you.

And when I woke up, I found that the thread was locked. Thanks for being such an amazing distraction, Syne. I guess that is what you are doing here too. IMHO, which I am entitled to, you are just a troll.

And BTW, the comment about my parenting skills and my daughter's possible Asperger's was *WAY* out of line. Go ahead and call me oversensitive, but Syne would never have the guts to say such a thing to my face. I know we are all sooo cool and blasé on the internet, but if anyone else here thinks comments like Syne's are perfectly acceptable, and belong in a science forum discussion, then shame on you, too.

And BTW, my theory of religion is actually very significantly about Asperger's syndrome, and how all of this ties into mirror neurons, mimetic theory, the Neanderthal theory on the origin of Asperger's syndrome, and the evolution of our species. And it's ultimate destiny. Maybe all of this is just too much to handle.


And here we are on the current thread, which is about Asperger's syndrome.

After a long and totally useless discussion over the validity, wording, and a missing link in the OP (which I corrected, and thanked Syne graciously for catching), and more senseless criticism of the new working link I provided, Syne lays into Aspergeans with these spiteful and useless remarks:

This thread is mostly Asperger apologetics. Do not expect any rational discussion.

I am commenting on the self-serving and apologetic belief in a "value" of AS. Have pride in what adversities you have overcome, but do not delude yourself into thinking it is anything more noble than a disorder.

The mastery of highly technical skills is not unique to Aspies, so this is unsupportable speculation.

Whatever makes you feel better.

Show me. It is clear that AS has some definite disadvantages, and no significant advantages over neurotypicals.

There is nothing new about organizations finding useful employment of the disabled/disadvantaged.They all require special accommodation.

Syne, I think you have a deep hatred and bigotry for people with Asperger's syndrome. Or you have some deep hatred of me. Which is it? Both?

I have speculated that there may be a deep fascination/hatred for Aspergeans that Neurotypicals have had since they first slaughtered our Neanderthal ancestors. There really may be an instinct to try to rid the species of the last 4% or so of the Neanderthal genes in the human genome. I have said that this may be the oldest prejudice on earth.

Does anyone think that Syne is giving us an example of this ancient hatred?

Does anyone else think he is rude?

Syne, do you ever read your own comments and think how they might look to an intelligent person who might happen to see them? Or is it that you just don't care? Your comments on the internet don't just dissipate into the air like they do when you say them out loud. You are leaving a record for others to evaluate. Perhaps you are just unaware of your own crassness.

---Futilitist

Mod note. I tried to post this once, but my posts are being moderated again. Since this is the result of a bug, I am posting this post by using the workaround that I figured out. If duplicates of this post result from my efforts, please do not post those duplicates to the thread. If they do appear anyway, I will try to catch them and remove the duplicate by using the edit button. I will note it there, as I have done in the past. Thank you.

 

[Read-Only]

But employers are looking for the specific advantages that autistic people can offer, they aren't doing it out of charity.

I have no trouble believing it. They make exceptionally good programmers - especially for computer games. In fact, I know of one personally who is doing exactly that - for a good living.

 

[Futilitist]

I have no trouble believing it. They make exceptionally good programmers - especially for computer games. In fact, I know of one personally who is doing exactly that - for a good living.

Many of my friends in the motion picture special effects industry were highly autistic. Same for the computer animation industry and robotics. Huge egos and levels of intensity and concentration.

Aspies sure do make good programers. And hackers too. Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon

Gary McKinnon (born 10 February 1966) is a Scottish systems administrator and hacker who was accused in 2002 of perpetrating the "biggest military computer hack of all time," although McKinnon himself – who has a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome – states that he was merely looking for evidence of free energy suppression and a cover-up of UFO activity and other technologies potentially useful to the public. On 16 October 2012, after a series of legal proceedings in Britain, Home Secretary Theresa May withdrew his extradition order to the United States.

McKinnon is accused of hacking into 97 United States military and NASA computers over a 13-month period between February 2001 and March 2002, at his girlfriend's aunt's house in London, using the name 'Solo'.

The US authorities claim he deleted critical files from operating systems, which shut down the United States Army’s Military District of Washington network of 2,000 computers for 24 hours. McKinnon also posted a notice on the military's website: "Your security is crap". After the September 11 attacks in 2001, he deleted weapons logs at the Earle Naval Weapons Station, rendering its network of 300 computers inoperable and paralyzing munitions supply deliveries for the US Navy's Atlantic Fleet. McKinnon is also accused of copying data, account files and passwords onto his own computer. US authorities claim the cost of tracking and correcting the problems he caused was over $700,000.

While not admitting that it constituted evidence of destruction, McKinnon did admit leaving a threat on one computer:

"US foreign policy is akin to Government-sponsored terrorism these days … It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year … I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels … "

US authorities claim that McKinnon is trying to downplay his own actions. A senior military officer at the Pentagon told The Sunday Telegraph: "US policy is to fight these attacks as strongly as possible. As a result of Mr McKinnon's actions, we suffered serious damage. This was not some harmless incident. He did very serious and deliberate damage to military and Nasa computers and left silly and anti-America messages. All the evidence was that someone was staging a very serious attack on US computer systems."

The neurotypical world should thank it's oh so lucky stars that Aspies tend to keep to themselves. Think what we Aspies could accomplish if we all really put our minds together. Shhh...

---Futilitist

 

[wynn]

The neurotypical world should thank it's oh so lucky stars that Aspies tend to keep to themselves.

I don't like labels for people.
I prefer to interact with someone however they happen to be, right there, right then.
While diagnoses have some uses, generally, they just get in the way of genuine communication.

 

[Futilitist]

Let's talk about the Neanderthal theory.

yet another duplicate post due to bug

 

[Futilitist]

Let's talk about the Neanderthal theory of Asperger's

To all,

We are now on post #68 and no one has even mentioned what I posted way back on post #23.

http://www.neanderthalproject.com/?t...rgers-syndrome

Please do read this article. This is important scientific stuff that redefines the evolution and nature of our species. It is very well researched and documented. It explains a lot of long standing mysteries. I find it totally fascinating. Why doesn't anyone else? I want to know what people think of this.

---Futilitist

mod note---this post was also being held for moderation. I will, once again keep an eye out for duplicate posts. This happens to me a lot.

 

[Bells]

I've approved it.

And it happens to all of us, not just you..

 

[elte]

It explains a lot of long standing mysteries. I find it totally fascinating. Why doesn't anyone else? I want to know what people think of this.

I found it very interesting. I was talking to someone about it and he mentioned that when a person gets one copy of genes related to these conditions from a single parent, they often benefit from a special genetic condition. Getting two copies of a lot of the genes involved could tend to lead to disease outcomes like Huntington's or cystic fibrosis.

 

[Syne]

But employers are looking for the specific advantages that autistic people can offer, they aren't doing it out of charity.

If employers were actively seeking people with such traits there would be no need for anyone to be promoting them. Accommodating special needs is charitable.

And when I woke up, I found that the thread was locked. Thanks for being such an amazing distraction, Syne. I guess that is what you are doing here too. IMHO, which I am entitled to, you are just a troll.

The difference is that AS was completely off-topic in that thread. If you had started this new thread on the subject earlier, as I advised you to do, that thread would not have been locked. So quit trying to make accusations and foist the blame for your own actions on others. Here in this thread I am stating my opinion, which I am entitled to, but I am remaining on-topic.

See the difference? The off-topic discussion in the other thread was the only "amazing distraction". So all this is just projection.

And BTW, the comment about my parenting skills and my daughter's possible Asperger's was *WAY* out of line. Go ahead and call me oversensitive, but Syne would never have the guts to say such a thing to my face. I know we are all sooo cool and blasé on the internet, but if anyone else here thinks comments like Syne's are perfectly acceptable, and belong in a science forum discussion, then shame on you, too.

I would say it to your face, as I think wishing disadvantages on a child is truly despicable. If you think shaming people into accepting despicable views is appropriate, then you probably should have posted your religion topic in the religion forum, where shame/guilt is to be expected. Again, this shame seems only projection. I would be ashamed to publicly wish disadvantages on my own child.

And BTW, my theory of religion is actually very significantly about Asperger's syndrome, and how all of this ties into mirror neurons, mimetic theory, the Neanderthal theory on the origin of Asperger's syndrome, and the evolution of our species. And it's ultimate destiny. Maybe all of this is just too much to handle.

So the future of our evolution is to take a huge step backwards? That is laughable. And what connection you may have made between these topics you have yet to successful establish. This is a science forum after all. Just bare assertions and proclamations. "Difficulties in social interaction" demonstrate that Asperger's is not closely related to mirror neurons and mimetics, as these are most prominently displayed in social interaction.

Syne, I think you have a deep hatred and bigotry for people with Asperger's syndrome. Or you have some deep hatred of me. Which is it? Both?

I have speculated that there may be a deep fascination/hatred for Aspergeans that Neurotypicals have had since they first slaughtered our Neanderthal ancestors. There really may be an instinct to try to rid the species of the last 4% or so of the Neanderthal genes in the human genome. I have said that this may be the oldest prejudice on earth.

Does anyone think that Syne is giving us an example of this ancient hatred?

Wow. That is just dripping with paranoia. Just because I do not sit back while people blow biased smoke up my ass does not mean I harbor any hatred or bigotry (remember what I said about making unfounded accusations?). It is you who is emotional invested in this topic, hence you who is displaying the cognitive bias. I would surmise that you are projecting your own hatred/bigotry against neurotypicals.

Does anyone else think he is rude?

Syne, do you ever read your own comments and think how they might look to an intelligent person who might happen to see them? Or is it that you just don't care? Your comments on the internet don't just dissipate into the air like they do when you say them out loud. You are leaving a record for others to evaluate. Perhaps you are just unaware of your own crassness.

Why, looking for an argument by consensus to support you projection? I welcome evaluation of my record.

I have no trouble believing it. They make exceptionally good programmers - especially for computer games. In fact, I know of one personally who is doing exactly that - for a good living.

Is there any evidence for them being better than a comparable neurotypical? If so, someone should really get around to presenting it.

 

[spidergoat]

Superior Nonverbal Intelligence in Children with High-Functioning Autism or Asperger's Syndrome

 

[spidergoat]

If employers were actively seeking people with such traits there would be no need for anyone to be promoting them. Accommodating special needs is charitable.

Having an agent working on your behalf to connect you with a job opportunity is not charity. I work in a specialized industry, and have had so-called "headhunters" begging to send me on interviews, even when I had no trouble finding a job.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

Futilitist, what motivates you for this thread?

What would Bruno do if he had the access to knowledge as you do now?

 

[Syne]

Is there any evidence for them being better than a comparable neurotypical? If so, someone should really get around to presenting it.

Superior Nonverbal Intelligence in Children with High-Functioning Autism or Asperger's Syndrome

Here is a link to the full paper: http://www.freewebs.com/adiscussion...ence in children with Asperger's disorder.pdf

In it you will find that aspies were compared to average neurotypicals (with an IQ around 100). It is no surprise that aspies, who lack non-verbal skills, would develop better performance IQ. That is to be expected with what we know of neuroplasticity and the brain's ability to compensate for a loss of faculty. Now you can claim that the average neurotypical is the comparable of the average aspie, but you are comparing fluid intelligence. In such a comparison, aspies are not superior to above-average neurotypicals. Seeing that above-average neurotypicals are free of the deficiencies of aspies, they are clearly superior.

If employers were actively seeking people with such traits there would be no need for anyone to be promoting them. Accommodating special needs is charitable.

Having an agent working on your behalf to connect you with a job opportunity is not charity. I work in a specialized industry, and have had so-called "headhunters" begging to send me on interviews, even when I had no trouble finding a job.

I did not say employment agencies were charitable, I said accommodating special needs is. Read it again and sort out your straw man.

 

[spidergoat]

I did not say employment agencies were charitable, I said accommodating special needs is. Read it again and sort out your straw man.

But companies are willing to make minor accommodations in order to get the advantages that people with autism offer. There was a whole show about this on public radio, it's all over the internet.

The deficiencies of autistic people are well known, but this is not the subject. You may personally decide that on balance, the intelligence of high functioning autistics doesn't outweigh their social deficiencies, but in many areas of study, social skills aren't so relevant. From the results summary of the paper in question:

The results of this study suggest that Asperger’s disorder involves superior abstract reasoning ability or higher general fluid intelligence. A theoretical account in the literature regarding the processing of the Raven test (Carpenter et al., 1990) proposes that the RSPM involves abstraction and goal management processes. In order to solve the problems on the RSPM, it is necessary to induce rules from the relationship between elements in matrices, and to generate and maintain goals in working memory until a target satisfies a theorem as a whole. As compared to normally developing children, the performance on the RSPM in children with Asperger’s disorder was critically different and was significantly better, implying the superiority in fluid intelligence in Asperger’s disorder. Moreover, from clinical case records of children with Asperger’s disorder diagnosed by Hans Asperger and his team, it was revealed that some individuals with Asperger’s disorder had a special gift for abstract thinking and logical reasoning (Hippler & Klicpera, 2003). Hans Asperger contended, in his original paper, that the traits of this disorder were in fact necessary for high achievement in the arts and sciences (Wing, 2005). Logical reasoning ability is a premise for conducting scientific research, and in fact there have been some outstanding scientists who were the cases of Asperger’s disorder (Asperger, 1944; Frith, 2004). Such clinical characteristics could be in correspondence to the superior performance on abstract reasoning problems of the RSPM in the present study. Recently, an interesting study of autistic intelligence has been published (Dawson et al., 2007). In this study, autistic children showed high scores on the RSPM. However, the percentile score on the RSPM were higher than the percentile scores on the Wechsler scales of intelligence in autistic children, while typically developing children did not show such discrepancy. The results of this study suggested that intelligence has been underestimated in autistics. Although this study was conducted to children with autism, and some autistics included IQ score below the average, indicating ‘low-functioning’ autism (i.e., in the range of mental retardation), our participants included children with Asperger’s disorder who had average or high IQ scores. Nevertheless, the results of our study were in line with those of the study by Dawson and colleagues (2007), since Asperger’s disorder shares the same clinical features to autism in poor social communication and is considered as one of autistic spectrum disorders.

Is it so terrible to be proud of that?

 

[Futilitist]

If employers were actively seeking people with such traits there would be no need for anyone to be promoting them. Accommodating special needs is charitable.

My work on the film "Total Recall" won my boss, Rob Bottin, the academy award for best special effects. I was his lead mechanical designer and lead puppeteer for three years and 5 films. I don't think he hired me as an act of charity.

[video=youtube;DS6Rs3NgxiM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS6Rs3NgxiM[/video]

The difference is that AS was completely off-topic in that thread. If you had started this new thread on the subject earlier, as I advised you to do, that thread would not have been locked. So quit trying to make accusations and foist the blame for your own actions on others. Here in this thread I am stating my opinion, which I am entitled to, but I am remaining on-topic.

Your constant over stressing of the rules might be an indication of an authoritarian personality, in my humble and non professional opinion.

See the difference? The off-topic discussion in the other thread was the only "amazing distraction". So all this is just projection.

You are simply failing to see how all these things are related. Your thinking is neurotypically compartmental.

I would say it to your face, as I think wishing disadvantages on a child is truly despicable. If you think shaming people into accepting despicable views is appropriate, then you probably should have posted your religion topic in the religion forum, where shame/guilt is to be expected. Again, this shame seems only projection. I would be ashamed to publicly wish disadvantages on my own child.

You most certainly would not say it to my face if you wished me not to punch you in yours. Your posts are highly anti social. No one speaks to others, in person, the way that you do online. You would not survive very long. IMHO, you are just a mean and cruel person hiding behind the internet for your own safety.

So the future of our evolution is to take a huge step backwards? That is laughable. And what connection you may have made between these topics you have yet to successful establish. This is a science forum after all. Just bare assertions and proclamations. "Difficulties in social interaction" demonstrate that Asperger's is not closely related to mirror neurons and mimetics, as these are most prominently displayed in social interaction.

Asperger's syndrome is characterized by a mirror neuron deficit compared to neurotypicals. That is the reason for the the relatively poor social interaction. Your argument is another example of neurotypical intellectual compartmentalization interfering with your ability to make intuitive connections between related ideas and concepts. Aspergeans are much better at relational thinking. Relational thinking is the basis of creativity.

As far as the future of our species goes, that is off topic for this thread so I can't provide detailed support here. I will start another thread on that specific topic, if the world doesn't end in the meantime. I don't look forward to seeing you there.

Wow. That is just dripping with paranoia. Just because I do not sit back while people blow biased smoke up my ass does not mean I harbor any hatred or bigotry (remember what I said about making unfounded accusations?). It is you who is emotional invested in this topic, hence you who is displaying the cognitive bias. I would surmise that you are projecting your own hatred/bigotry against neurotypicals.

This is a good example of projection. Clearly there has been much evidence presented here, by myself and others, that you are simply failing to notice. The use of the phrase "while people blow biased smoke up my ass" is yet another indication of your general hostility.

Why, looking for an argument by consensus to support you projection? I welcome evaluation of my record.

Good. My evaluation is that you have some serious emotional issues, IMHO.

Is there any evidence for them being better than a comparable neurotypical? If so, someone should really get around to presenting it.

Everyone keeps presenting evidence and you keep disregarding it.

---Futilitist

 

[Futilitist]

Futilitist, what motivates you for this thread?

Asperger's syndrome.

What would Bruno do if he had the access to knowledge as you do now?

I have no idea since I am not him. Why do you ask? What might be done to him is a better question.

---Futilitist