What you say is irrelevant. I predict you're full of crap. Nostradumbass.
The U.S. Economy: Stand by for more worse news
- Thread starter Brian Foley
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What you say is irrelevant. I predict you're full of crap. Nostradumbass.
You're really going all in 100% on the Bernanke put ...or is there a percentage of deflationary depression you'd also put odds on?
That is kind of an odd statement from you Michael. You are the one advocating economic depression.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'advocating'. A Depression is the inevitable outcome of central planned economies. Ask the North Koreans. Ask the Greeks. Talk to your average American. The ones with degrees in worthlessness who are working at McDonalds, living at home and can't even afford to start families of their own.
Firstly, it's perfectly normal for businesses to go bankrupt. Malinvestment is purged from the market. Suppose someone started a business that was selling strawberry flavored anal floss. Given the free-market doesn't want that product, the entire venture would go bust. What is ODD is that all these malinvestments happen to be aligning at one particular time. THAT is not normal and would not be normal in a free-market. There shouldn't be high peaks and troughs. That's something to think about. Minus a nuclear meltdown or massive earthquake businesses should reach a normal average going into and out of the free market year on year.
This is not what we see in our 'regulated' unfree-market. Why is it Joe? Why is it, do you think, that ALL these malinvestments just so happen to align in a single time period resulting in booms and busts? Do you think that maybe the Federal Reserve sent signals into the market that many entrepreneurs picked up on simultaneously and which is why so many people invested badly all at once. That maybe governmental incentives and policies skewed the free-market?
Why is that Joe? What is the reason we have all these bad investments lining in a single year and not averaging out across all years?
Secondly, a Depression is required to get rid of the bad investments. Forcing the American tax payer to bailout strawberry flavored anal floss manufacturers "Because we need to 'save' American Jooooobs here at home!" only delays the inevitable. There's also the little fact the the public school system, instead of encouraging entrepreneurial citizens, instead pumps out 'workers' who are 'socialized' to think 'getting a job' is the goal - instead of starting a business.
Raising your hand and asking for permission to leave and pee is a great social skill... I'm just wondering where it's implemented best? Perhaps in prison? ANYWHERE else this 'social skill' is of value?
Thirdly, why is, do you suppose Joe, that under POTUS Obama 93% of the gains went to the top 1% of the richest Americans? Why is Obama sending all our money to the richest 1%? Do tell.
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heh... the coming two years are going to crush many many Americans. And when they look to Dear Leader to 'save' them they'll find there most certainly is ONE and only ONE business the government can engage in quite productively.
I´m never quite sure what is included in the "Bernanke put" but during depression, yes there usually is deflation of real prices* (with greatly increased nominal prices this time too as dollar goes to something like ten cents of current value).
* In Charleston W.Va., where I grew up, the eight story tall Medical Arts Building, in a prime down town area, changed hands for only $500!** but in that great depression the dollar printing presses had been turned off for some years so a dollar, in real deflationary times had more than normal value - quite different from current conditions.
** Few doctors were paying their office rents. Many operated from their homes instead and owner could not afford to keep power on or pay the taxes.
um greece didn't have a centrally planned economy?
also you do realize from a libertarian source the heartiage foundation rates all of the scandavian countries with their social democratic policies as having higher economic freedom than greece freer market than than them
1. ALL nations have centrally planned economies. ALL OF THEM. It's just a matter of degree. Each time the government regulates in favor of this way or cuts a tax break that way - in effect, this really does skew the free market (biases the free choice people would have made) and is part and parcel 'central planning'.
So, yes, Greece has a MASSIVELY central planned economy and now they're paying for it.
2. Booming Sweden’s Free-Market Solution
I find it amazing how so-called "free" citizens can be so frightened of being allowed to live freely. Even when taxed 20-40% of their own God damn LABOR, AND they still whine they're too free. The mind boggles that the USA was ever a free nation at all. To imagine for the longest lived of us, there's but one pass of the torch and it's come to this. Imagine a person born 210 years ago lives to 110. And a person born around then also lives to be 110. How things have changed over the course of those two life spans.
You needn't worry about Libertarians, we only make up 0.4% of the public and your labor was sold off to people long, long ago. So, just do what the State tells you to do, vote whichever way makes you feel like you're 'A Citizen of this Free Nation' (it's not going to make any difference) - when it's all said and done, we will live and we will die as US prime choice Grade C (for Chattel class) beef stock. The rich will get richer and the poor - very much poorer. Land of Opportunity? Not by a LONG shot.
Well, not all of us, I have multiple passports
I predict Obama for the win - easily. No ones going to vote for that sociopath Mitten the Mormon and the top 1% have already invested a lot of time and energy into Obama. Anything that appears to the contrary - is just that, an appearance. A mirage.
so in other words as usual with you fuck the facts words and phrases actual meanings are irrelevant your going to use your own dishonest definitions/
no one is frightened of living free. we have never been as free as we are today. what you equate as freedom is really nothing more than a modified version of the old ideas of atristicratic privileage. you know where those with wealth and power did what they wanted and ;esser beings had their lives determined by the will of the powerful because thay had no means to respond.
?????? first of no on e is taxed based on labor. this has been explained to you. I know you think its perfectly moral to both sell and own something but its not. your pay check is what you get by selling ones labor. after you sell it it is no longer yours. and no one complains about being to free. though again what you equate to freedom isn not actually freedom.
I worry about all uneducated ignorant extremists and no matter how much you make your insulting cattle comments to people far more intelligent and knowledgable than your self that always what libertarians will be.
considering I haven't sold my labor no I haven't
the state doesn't tell me to do shit I am my own man and think for myself. which is more than I can say for you who repeats the same tired libertarian bullshit without ever thinking for yourself or even examining your beliefs. you live in this world like a child not an adult. your arrogance and insulting demeanor to all who disagree with you proves that.
because of right wing ideologies like yours. if left wing ideals once again become the primary driving force we will get back to what we were.
more meaningless drivel. I only have one passport even though I could should I chose carry dual citizenship but its irrelevant anyone can emmigrat no matter how many passports they may hold.Well, not all of us, I have multiple passports
good for you you can read people smarter than you who have shown that.
first off mit isn't a sociopath. your an embaressment to the medical profession the way you throw around medical terms willy nilly. I know psycholgists and they would be horrified in the casual way you through around the word.
no they haven't that's just your ideology ignoring facts and making shit up again. the 1% as a whole is against obama not that you'd care because in your mind anyone who isn't a libertarian just wants to put a gun to your head and rule your life.
No. A very active central government can be very good (Norway) very bad (Argintina) or in between (USA, where most of the cental planning is via the tax laws).
WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS HOW UNIVERSAL AND GOOD IS THE EDUCATION IT PROVIDES TO ALL ITS CITIZENS {US fails this test.}:
This to update the footnote in my post 11 below.
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You don’t know what I mean after all these years? Of course you know, you just don’t like to admit it. Are you going to tell me that you are equating the economies of North Korea and Greece to The United States? You are really good at making false analogies, you do it all the time. The US economy is in no way similar to that of the North Koreans. Nor is the US similar to Greece or any EU member state. Greece, like other member EU states, has relinquished a portion of its sovereignty to the EU. Greece is no longer able to manage its monetary policy which is by the way something you have steadfastly argued for in this forum by eliminating the Federal Reserve.
And now you are telling me your average American has a college degree and is working at a McDonald’s, living at home and cannot afford to start a family? Get real, where is the evidence to support that contention? Most Americans don’t have college degrees for starters. That nonsense about McDonalds is baseless demagoguery.
Yes businesses go bankrupt all the time. That is not the issue, it never has been. This is you setting up a red herring, a distraction. “Malinvestment” is a word you or those whom you follow made up. You spend a lot of time talking about free markets, but have no idea as to what it means. You have repeatedly run away from ample evidence that disproves your idolized notions about free markets. I have shown you many times before, that the periods before the Federal Reserve and Keynesian economics were much more volatile – periods of depression and inflation were much more frequent and much more sever. Your ideological notions about free markets and the economy fly in the face of reality and 100+ years of empirical evidence.
Where are these “malinvestments”? And just exactly what is a “malinvestment”? And where is your evidence that says a depression is necessary to get rid of these “malinvestments”? You cannot do either of those things, because they are a figment of your imagination.
As for your claims about wealth inequity, where is your evidence? Where is your proof? Where is your proof that President Obama is mailing/sending a check to the uber wealthy every month? The facts are that as the US economy globalizes, domestic workers are competing with workers in China, India, Brazil, etc. The demand for common unskilled labor has been static. The demand for skilled labor has increased. It is that old free market thingy you like to talk about.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
The vast majority of employment doesnt require higher education...nor is the majority capable of absorbing it.
Such a plan would simply be a form of malinvestment...already evident in the US with huge numbers of the university educated employed with jobs that dont require it.
As Adam Smith pointed out, the most important requirements for the wealth of nations are...peace, a sound legal system, and low taxes.
To that I would also add a balance or surplus of trade.
HA!!!
I hope you like your FREE made-in China Obama phone Joe.
I wonder if you're even bothering to read anything other than the few post links herein?
I don't think so.
This is a very nuanced argument that I don't think you quite understand.
Here's the difference between us. You want more of the same. I want radical change. You are a conservative. I am a liberal. That's the classical definitions. The word 'radical' actually has a clear defined meaning.
Lucky for you, most people are just like you. I suspect things in the USA will continue to get worse for another 15-20 years at which point hopefully, the Union will dissolve and you can go live with others that think like you and I can go live with others who think like me. From there it's only really a generation before we reassert freedom on you much like we're doing to Iraqies today. Thus completing an age old cycle of the nation.
Or so we can only hope. Either way, lets hope Obama gets elected and we all get our free 30 phones.
With the internet almost all information IS available.
Here and now.
You can learn just about anything you would like to learn. All books made are electronic now. All the Classics are for free. Most Science text (basic and research) are free. You can get translations of everything for free.
There's plenty of access to information. We don't live in a world where information is horded by the few who can afford a library or a book. We live in a world where people are seen for exactly what they've always been: intellectually lazy. Why? I personally think it is directly 100% parenting. Which is why we have shit public schools in the USA as this is a great way NOT to have to do it (parenting that is).
IOWs I think the answer is the culture of Norway itself that's different.
KSA has a massive State run education system. I hear most kids can recite the Qur'an verbatim by age 12 (ha! Not really, but you get the point)?
Japan and Korea, Singapore and China - watch as Asia eclipses all but a few nations like Germany and Norway. It's all in the culture and family.
Lastly, I maintain that Norway's State run economy must be less efficient relative to a free-market laze-fair economy. Thus, while it's somewhat prosperous, it's not as prosperous as it could be.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Norway is somewhat prosperous from 42 years of north sea oil revenues.
Its the Saudi Arabia of Scandinavia.
Most people in US have little interest in the internet for self education - They want to use "social networks" instead. To slightly change the idem: You can lead a jackass to water but you can not make him drink. The best way to use the internet for education is as China does. Many rural Chinese teachers are not well educated, so they monitor students watching educational programs more than the teach.
Most of Norway´s oil revenue is NOT being spent on current consumption, but has been invested all over the world by an investment trust (660 Billion dollars now) for the future generations, when the oil is gone. You could say in the future, Noway´s oil made Norway rich in perhaps 2060 when it is used.
Yes Noway is different - a superior culture, not sealing from future generation for current consumption - because it educates well all its voters. Why do you BELIEVE Norway would be more prosperous in a free-market laze-fair economy when all that have been attempted (in small scale utopian groups) have failed, usually in less than a decade? That IMHO is just your quasi-religious dogma.
BTW another interesting benefit of the Norwegian educational system, I did not mention, is that a new teacher typically will have smaller class by 2 to 4 students on average in her first cycle thru the system. An exceptionally good one may have 2 to 4 more than the average. - This is not government planning to help the inexperienced teacher cope. It is because everyone knows when a good teacher will retire and be replaced by one just out of teacher´s college. I.e. some women time, even several years in advance, the birth of their child to occur when an exceptional good teacher will be starting a new group in first grade!
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Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Some of the oil revenue goes to a 'pension' fund...meaning citizens use the income they would have saved for retirement on consumption or investment now.
Any way you look at it, oil is Norway's primary wealth creator.
I don´t know about this. Do you have link or name of it so I can learn more?