US's economy has fully recovered?

[Michael]

The US government was not created to provide products and services - that's called Fascism Joe. Our government was created to protect our private property AND to ensure the Law is upheld.

THAT was the more perfect Union.

Washington did try and impose a Whiskey Tax and Thomas Jefferson repealed it. It should be noted that tax was supposedly to pay off the War debt - not to provide services or produce. Yes I, like Ron Paul, do believe one limited role the Federal Government has is to protect the boarders of the Nation.


How does a brand spanking new Federal Reserve note come into existence?

What does the word NOTE mean?

When an idiot politician promises the ignorant electorate some pretty shiny beads and needs to sell US Bonds to the Chinese to pay for the shiny beads, what's backing the Bonds Joe? Where is their value derived from? What are the Chinese buying?



Truth is treason in the Empire of lies.
-- Ron Paul (2008)

 

[joepistole]

The US government was not created to provide products and services - that's called Fascism Joe. Our government was created to protect our private property AND to ensure the Law is upheld.

THAT was the more perfect Union.

Go back and read what I wrote. I didn't say government was created to provide goods and services. But government does produce goods and services to provide for our collective interests (e.g. roads, internet, defense, etc.) and there is a cost for those goods and services.

Washington did try and impose a Whiskey Tax and Thomas Jefferson repealed it. It should be noted that tax was supposedly to pay off the War debt - not to provide services or produce. Yes I, like Ron Paul, do believe one limited role the Federal Government has is to protect the boarders of the Nation.

How does a brand spanking new Federal Reserve note come into existence?

What does the word NOTE mean?

Yes the founding fathers did impose taxation. New Federal Reserve Notes are printed by the Bureau of Printing and Engraving (US Treasury) at the requet of the Federal Reserve.

So since you believe that the roll of government is only to provide protection from internal threats, why are you using the internet - a creation of the Federal government? I bet you use roads created by government. I bet you engage in commercial transactions using commercial codes created by government and enforced by government. I would even venture that you were educated by the government and have received goods and services by individuals who were similarly educated by government.

When an idiot politician promises the ignorant electorate some pretty shiny beads and needs to sell US Bonds to the Chinese to pay for the shiny beads, what's backing the Bonds Joe? Where is their value derived from? What are the Chinese buying?

Any rational buyer of US Treasury obligations is doing so for the interest. It is just that simple.

 

[Michael]

Go back and read what I wrote. I didn't say government was created to provide goods and services. But government does produce goods and services to provide for our collective interests (e.g. roads, internet, defense, etc.) and there is a cost for those goods and services.

No it does not. The government pays private companies who provide goods and services. It does so poorly and inefficiently. Which is why Apple invented the iPhone and not the US government.

Yes the founding fathers did impose taxation. New Federal Reserve Notes are printed by the Bureau of Printing and Engraving (US Treasury) at the requet of the Federal Reserve.

This did not answer the question.

How do NEW Federal Reserve Notes come into existence. I didn't ask how they are printed. Most are numbers on a screen - How are they created?

How is it related to debt?

So since you believe that the roll of government is only to provide protection from internal threats, why are you using the internet - a creation of the Federal government? I bet you use roads created by government. I bet you engage in commercial transactions using commercial codes created by government and enforced by government. I would even venture that you were educated by the government and have received goods and services by individuals who were similarly educated by government.

Gee Jim, yous eaten corn the Master gave to ya. You wearing cotton the other Slaves picked. Oh, if you don't want to be a Slave, why don't you run around naked and starve to death.

:bugeye:

That's how idiotic your argument sounds. Just because you're born into Communist North Korea does NOT mean you "OWE" the government any damn thing. Simple enough? Making any sense? AND YES, you can protest it and try and change it.

Any rational buyer of US Treasury obligations is doing so for the interest. It is just that simple.

I asked what's backing up the Bond. Your only answer is INTEREST? Interest on what? Where is the value?

Could it be Labor?

Could it be the government is actually selling your future labor at interest and that's what's ultimately gives bonds their value? Well Joe? Is it?


Either you didn't really understand what you were learning while at University or your playing dumb or are ignorant.
You claim the Fed rings up the Treasury and money 'appear' *poof*.
You claim the "interest" is what gives bonds their value.

Do these seem like truthful meaningful answers? I'm sure you can do better.

Truth is treason in the Empire of lies.
-- Ron Paul (2008)

 

[joepistole]

No it does not. The government pays private companies who provide goods and services. It does so poorly and inefficiently. Which is why Apple invented the iPhone and not the US government.

Getting a little desperate Michael? So using your logic, if you hire people to put a new roof on your house; you really didn't put a new roof on your house. That argument Michael doesn't make sense.

Additionally, the US government is the major sponsor of primary research - including biomedical research. The government provides most of the education in this country and it does provide the roads and the commercial structures that you use every day.

This did not answer the question.

Oh yes it did. You just do not like the answers.

How do NEW Federal Reserve Notes come into existence. I didn't ask how they are printed. Most are numbers on a screen - How are they created?

That is how they come into existence. The Fed orders the Treasury to create them and the Treasury prints them. I think you are confusing creation of money with the Federal Reserve's roll managing the money supply. The Fed controls the money supply by controlling member bank reserve requirements and by buying and selling assets. If the Fed purchases assets it increases the money supply. If it sells assets, it contracts the money supply.

Gee Jim, yous eaten corn the Master gave to ya. You wearing cotton the other Slaves picked. Oh, if you don't want to be a Slave, why don't you run around naked and starve to death.

Into the hooch?

That's how idiotic your argument sounds. Just because you're born into Communist North Korea does NOT mean you "OWE" the government any damn thing. Simple enough? Making any sense? AND YES, you can protest it and try and change it.

You are making stuff up again Michael. I was not born into Communist North Korea. And government does provide goods and services those goods are services have a cost associated with them.

I asked what's backing up the Bond. Your only answer is INTEREST? Interest on what? Where is the value?

Could it be Labor?

You asked where is the value? The value is the interest received and that interest is backed by the full faith and credit of The United States. If you have a point here, it is certainly not clear.

Could it be the government is actually selling your future labor at interest and that's what's ultimately gives bonds their value? Well Joe? Is it?

No.

Either you didn't really understand what you were learning while at University or your playing dumb or are ignorant.
You claim the Fed rings up the Treasury and money 'appear' *poof*.
You claim the "interest" is what gives bonds their value.

Do these seem like truthful meaningful answers? I'm sure you can do better.

Truth is treason in the Empire of lies.
-- Ron Paul (2008)

Instead of making ad hominem arguments Michael perhaps you should pay attention.

 

[iceaura]

3) The role of my government is as follows:
“ - form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, - - -

. . . and yet . . . how is that "common kitty" created? Is it created by the inputs of it's citizens voluntarily?

Yes.

1) Money is not wholly "your property" - look at the picture on the bill: do you see your own face? The guy who pointed out that what is Ceasar's may be legitimately claimed by Ceasar was not blowing smoke. ”
Do you know what money is? That USD you're holding on to is a Promissory Note. It's a promise to be paid "money" at some point in the future

Regardless of what it is in your fertile imagination, it is not wholly “your property” in the real world. You didn’t create it. Caesar did.

Tell me how living on a Farm and growing apples YOURSELF is "taking from the common 'Kitty'?

Everything that depends on the government created and defended institution of legal private property, everything that depends on making use of the public air and water and the protection of fertility in farmland, everything that depends on roads and contractual trade and community infrastructure, begins in a withdrawal from the common kitty. Have you ever actually set up a farm and set about planting apple trees and caring for them for years and harvesting and marketing the apples? You need a lot of support, from generations of hardworking people before and after you. And you owe them for it.

3) The role of my government is as follows: ”
When you take a quote out of context you loose all meaning. A flowery line from the US Constitution can just as easily have come anywhere and mean, literally anything, to anyone at anytime. Here's a section from the Communist Manifesto I wonder with how much of it your agree?

It’s spelled “lose”. “Loose” means the opposite, almost.
And it is a quote from the founding document of my government. It specifies the role of that government, explicitly. Whether I, or you, “agree” with that role is irrelevant.
I do agree with significant portions of the Communist Manifesto – so do most other people, and all reasonable adults. That’s one reason it has had so much influence – it makes sense.

How do you go about deciding which are moral and which are not moral?

I don’t. But if I were to attempt such a waste of effort, I would make those decisions based on fundamental moral principles, such as “betrayal is usually wrong”; “reneging on contracted debts is usually wrong”; and so forth.

The US government was not created to provide products and services - that's called Fascism .

No. Under theoretical fascism, as established by Mussolini and many others since, private corporations provide almost all products and services.

Which is why Apple invented the iPhone and not the US government.

The US government is responsible for the invention of the computer, the internet, the geosynchronous satellite, the communication code setup (frequency hopping, for example, by Hedy Lamarr for guiding torpedoes in WWII), and so forth. The profiteers at Apple borrowed a hell of a lot from the kitty, and they owe for its replenishment.
And that’s perfectly OK – we of the community lent with our blessing. But there’s nothing wrong with calling in that debt, when we need the money.

 

[Michael]

Getting a little desperate Michael? So using your logic, if you hire people to put a new roof on your house; you really didn't put a new roof on your house. That argument Michael doesn't make sense.

Additionally, the US government is the major sponsor of primary research - including biomedical research. The government provides most of the education in this country and it does provide the roads and the commercial structures that you use every day.

Fidel Castro provides most of the education and is the major sponsor of primary research - including biomedical research. He provides the roads and the commercial structures that you use every day.

Anything sinking in yet? Your argument could be in support of ANY government from Rome to Communist Cuba. This is what happens when you have no moral philosophy. Anything can mean anything at any time. Which is why the American public is conned by the two "Political Parties" both switching sides and playing games just to stay in power. It's why you always resort to name calling. As if ME, an atheist who supports free choice, homosexual marriage and the free market could be a "conservative". Those labels MEAN NOTHING. No one is 100% liberal/conservative/etc....

How far we've come in the last 200 years.

Everything that depends on the government created and defended institution of legal private property, everything that depends on making use of the public air and water and the protection of fertility in farmland, everything that depends on roads and contractual trade and community infrastructure, begins in a withdrawal from the common kitty. Have you ever actually set up a farm and set about planting apple trees and caring for them for years and harvesting and marketing the apples? You need a lot of support, from generations of hardworking people before and after you. And you owe them for it.

Farms existed before governments. Therefor farms do NOT need governments to exist. Governments OTOH need farms to exist.

Agreed?

Also, the 'commons' are outside the government.

I do agree with significant portions of the Communist Manifesto – so do most other people, and all reasonable adults. That’s one reason it has had so much influence – it makes sense.

So does the Bible from a superstitious perspective.

And that's the point. What's your perspective? What IS your philosophy? It seems to be willy nilly.

Do you agree with the following statement: Initiation of force against another human is immoral?

The US government is responsible for the invention of the computer, the internet, the geosynchronous satellite, the communication code setup (frequency hopping, for example, by Hedy Lamarr for guiding torpedoes in WWII), and so forth. The profiteers at Apple borrowed a hell of a lot from the kitty, and they owe for its replenishment.
And that’s perfectly OK – we of the community lent with our blessing. But there’s nothing wrong with calling in that debt, when we need the money.

I would like to know how many people agree with these sentiments? I completely disagree.

As an example I use Nikola Tesla. He didn't come to America to 'work for the government'. He escaped government-ruined Europe to free-markets/freedom in America. A freedom you take for granted and soon won't have to worry about because it won't BE granted anymore.

The FREE MARKET brought the modern world into existence Joe - NOT, the US government and most certainly not it's ugly sister Communist governments.

• Various devices that use rotating magnetic fields (1882)
• The Induction motor, rotary transformers, and "high" frequency alternators
• The Tesla coil,[42] his magnifying transmitter, and other means for increasing the intensity of electrical oscillations (including condenser discharge transformations and the Tesla oscillators[43][44])
• Alternating current long-distance electrical transmission system[45] (1888) and other methods and devices for power transmission
• Systems for wireless communication (prior art for the invention of radio) and radio frequency oscillators[46]
• Robotics and the electronic logic gate[47]
• Electrotherapy Tesla currents[48][49][50]
• Wireless transfer of electricity and the Tesla effect[51][52]
• Tesla impedance phenonomena[53]
• Tesla electro-static field
• Tesla principle
• Bifilar coil
• Telegeodynamics
• Tesla insulation
• Tesla impulses[54]
• Tesla frequencies[42]
• Tesla discharge[42]
• Forms of commutators and methods of regulating third brushes
• Tesla turbines (e.g., bladeless turbines) for water, steam and gas and the Tesla pumps
• Tesla igniter
• Corona discharge ozone generator
• Tesla compressor
• X-rays Tubes using the Bremsstrahlung process
• Devices for ionized gases and "Hot Saint Elmo's Fire".[55]
• Devices for high field emission
• Devices for charged particle beams
• Phantom streaming devices[56]
• Arc light systems
• Methods for providing extremely low level of resistance to the passage of electric current (predecessor to superconductivity)
• Voltage multiplication circuitry
• Devices for high voltage discharges
• Devices for lightning protection
• VTOL aircraft
• Dynamic theory of gravity
• Concepts for electric vehicles
• Polyphase systems

 

[Michael]

Lastly, Joe

Please explain how debt is related to the creation of a new US Federal Reserve Note.


Please explain where the value is derived from in the interest the Chinese receive on the Bonds they buy from the USA Government. IOWs, what is it the US government is REALLY selling? What is it that the Chinese government is really buying?

 

[iceaura]

Farms existed before governments. Therefor farms do NOT need governments to exist.

That is false. Farms did not exist before governments. Governments did exist before farms.

You keep making factually false statements - many of them, some of them repeated after correction. How much of your "philosophy" here is based on a worldview constructed of these simple factual errors, historical ignorance, and so forth?

Do you agree with the following statement: Initiation of force against another human is immoral?

No. Initiation of force against against betrayal and default is an individual's moral obligation to the community.

The US government is responsible for the invention of the computer, the internet, the geosynchronous satellite, the communication code setup (frequency hopping, for example, by Hedy Lamarr for guiding torpedoes in WWII), and so forth. The profiteers at Apple borrowed a hell of a lot from the kitty, and they owe for its replenishment.

And that’s perfectly OK – we of the community lent with our blessing. But there’s nothing wrong with calling in that debt, when we need the money.
”
I would like to know how many people agree with these sentiments? I completely disagree.

Well, Google is your friend. It doesn't matter how many people "disagree" with the simple facts of history.

 

[joepistole]

Lastly, Joe

Please explain how debt is related to the creation of a new US Federal Reserve Note.

Been there done that many times. I suggest you go back and read my last post. I am not going to endlessly repeat myself.

Please explain where the value is derived from in the interest the Chinese receive on the Bonds they buy from the USA Government. IOWs, what is it the US government is REALLY selling? What is it that the Chinese government is really buying?

As state many times before, interest.

 

[joepistole]

Fidel Castro provides most of the education and is the major sponsor of primary research - including biomedical research. He provides the roads and the commercial structures that you use every day.

Anything sinking in yet? Your argument could be in support of ANY government from Rome to Communist Cuba. This is what happens when you have no moral philosophy. Anything can mean anything at any time. Which is why the American public is conned by the two "Political Parties" both switching sides and playing games just to stay in power. It's why you always resort to name calling. As if ME, an atheist who supports free choice, homosexual marriage and the free market could be a "conservative". Those labels MEAN NOTHING. No one is 100% liberal/conservative/etc....

How far we've come in the last 200 years.

We were not talking about Cuba. We were talking about The United States. Here is the fact, the fact you want to runaway from, governments do provide goods and services which cost money. And those costs are passed on to the beneficaries of those goods and services in the form of a tax, fee or fine.

Farms existed before governments. Therefor farms do NOT need governments to exist. Governments OTOH need farms to exist.

Agreed?

Do you have some proof of this claim? We are social animals and I suspect have always had some rules governing our behaviors. It may have been tribal government, but it was government.

Also, the 'commons' are outside the government.

Not relevant.

So does the Bible from a superstitious perspective.

And that's the point. What's your perspective? What IS your philosophy? It seems to be willy nilly.

Do you agree with the following statement: Initiation of force against another human is immoral?

No, I don't agree. We are social animals. And we need rules to govern our interactions. My son learned, there are rules and he needs to follow them. It took a while, but my son learned. I learned the rules too, taught to me by my mother and father.

I would like to know how many people agree with these sentiments? I completely disagree.

As an example I use Nikola Tesla. He didn't come to America to 'work for the government'. He escaped government-ruined Europe to free-markets/freedom in America. A freedom you take for granted and soon won't have to worry about because it won't BE granted anymore.

The FREE MARKET brought the modern world into existence Joe - NOT, the US government and most certainly not it's ugly sister Communist governments.

• Various devices that use rotating magnetic fields (1882)
• The Induction motor, rotary transformers, and "high" frequency alternators
• The Tesla coil,[42] his magnifying transmitter, and other means for increasing the intensity of electrical oscillations (including condenser discharge transformations and the Tesla oscillators[43][44])
• Alternating current long-distance electrical transmission system[45] (1888) and other methods and devices for power transmission
• Systems for wireless communication (prior art for the invention of radio) and radio frequency oscillators[46]
• Robotics and the electronic logic gate[47]
• Electrotherapy Tesla currents[48][49][50]
• Wireless transfer of electricity and the Tesla effect[51][52]
• Tesla impedance phenonomena[53]
• Tesla electro-static field
• Tesla principle
• Bifilar coil
• Telegeodynamics
• Tesla insulation
• Tesla impulses[54]
• Tesla frequencies[42]
• Tesla discharge[42]
• Forms of commutators and methods of regulating third brushes
• Tesla turbines (e.g., bladeless turbines) for water, steam and gas and the Tesla pumps
• Tesla igniter
• Corona discharge ozone generator
• Tesla compressor
• X-rays Tubes using the Bremsstrahlung process
• Devices for ionized gases and "Hot Saint Elmo's Fire".[55]
• Devices for high field emission
• Devices for charged particle beams
• Phantom streaming devices[56]
• Arc light systems
• Methods for providing extremely low level of resistance to the passage of electric current (predecessor to superconductivity)
• Voltage multiplication circuitry
• Devices for high voltage discharges
• Devices for lightning protection
• VTOL aircraft
• Dynamic theory of gravity
• Concepts for electric vehicles
• Polyphase systems

The rest of this is not relevant.

 

[Michael]

That is false. Farms did not exist before governments. Governments did exist before farms.

Who provided the food for the unproductive government "officials"? I'm talking about a centralized State government. Not a tribe where a few farmers come together to discuss who gets to marry whose daughter.

Or are you going to suggest a father and mother (we'll say with one child) are a "government"? Is THAT your argument :bugeye:


Well, don't worry.
Just as you have no problem stealing from others - others have no problems stealing from you. To a politician you're nothing more than another head of dumb Cattle to be milked. Which is exactly what is happening. Day by Day. Well, you will have less next year than this. And even less the next year. Unless you work in a bank, the government or are very well invested.

A just desert if ever there was one - don't you think?
A sort of Ying and Yang
Karma
Have done unto you as you do unto others

Slippery slope isn't it? You could have went with competing currencies, protection of your private property and no initiation of violence. But nope - just couldn't resist stealing from the rich ole man who lives on the hill in the Big House. Yup, you probably thought you were pretty clever.

Well, you got your wish. The ole man ponied up a couple handfuls of hay over to the Cattle farm. Which should make you very happy - yea for you! Then he went on over to the politician sociopaths who run the US and UK (and Japanese, Australian, Chinese etc...) governments and THINK JUST LIKE YOU and told them to start the milking machining - there's work to be done. See, they also find no moral qualms with stealing from one person (you) and giving to another (them and their rich friends).

Lucky you, and I'm sure you'll be happy living in a slightly smaller stall with a slightly bigger milking machine set up next to you

Karma's a bitch - I heard.


Oh, as an aside, reread the Communist Manifesto again. Look at all those lovely Stated goals. They seem pretty good huh? And according to you with a more centralized government that has even more power to enforce and initiate force against any and every citizen (including YOU) why, things should be right as rain. A BIG State with lots of power run by psychopaths and indebted to the rich old man on the Hill who's pissed you stole from him - yup, they should be even better equipped and able to meet these so-called "wondrous" goals.

Oh..... and what DO we find in States with powerful Central Governments with lovely Stated goals? That's right, we find a very patriotic impoverished ignorant nation of Cattle ruled over by a small minority of well connected rich elite - just like the USA and UK.

Just as you support.

governments do provide goods and services which cost money. And those costs are passed on to the beneficaries of those goods and services in the form of a tax, fee or fine.

Give me an example of a "Good" the Government produces and sells in the free-market that is not subsidized through a tax and whose purchase is not forced. Is there anything? The Post Office? Roads? Hmmmm......????

Do you have some proof of this claim? We are social animals and I suspect have always had some rules governing our behaviors. It may have been tribal government, but it was government.

Social morals are what govern our overall behaviors - even today. NOT some crackpot psychopath in office.

No, I don't agree. We are social animals. And we need rules to govern our interactions. My son learned, there are rules and he needs to follow them. It took a while, but my son learned. I learned the rules too, taught to me by my mother and father.

We are animals. And it was YOU teaching your son, NOT the government. Thanks for making my point for me.

The rest of this is not relevant.

Oh, it's relevant when Joe claims this person called "The Government" invented computers - but it's not relevant when I show how you're completely wrong - as usual I might add

Nice consistency Joe.

Let me guess, this when you call me a Conservative atheist who supports homosexual marriage, repealing drug laws, limited role of a Central government, Ending the Federal Reserve and free markets.





OH, yeah, you seem to be avoiding these two questions:

1
How is debt related to the creation of a new US Federal Reserve Note?

2
From where is the value derived in the interest the Chinese government receive on the Bonds issued from the USA Government? IOWs, what is it the US government is REALLY selling? What is it that the Chinese government is really buying?

Whats backing the interest Joe?

Moooo, Mooooo, MooooooooooooOOoOooooOoooOOooooooo.........

 

[joepistole]

Who provided the food for the unproductive government "officials"? I'm talking about a centralized State government. Not a tribe where a few farmers come together to discuss who gets to marry whose daughter.

Or are you going to suggest a father and mother (we'll say with one child) are a "government"? Is THAT your argument :bugeye:

Here is the bottom line, not unlike your many other claims, you cannot support this claim with evidence, fact or reason.

Well, don't worry.
Just as you have no problem stealing from others - others have no problems stealing from you. To a politician you're nothing more than another head of dumb Cattle to be milked. Which is exactly what is happening. Day by Day. Well, you will have less next year than this. And even less the next year. Unless you work in a bank, the government or are very well invested.

A just desert if ever there was one - don't you think?
A sort of Ying and Yang
Karma
Have done unto you as you do unto others

What the hell are you talking about?

Slippery slope isn't it? You could have went with competing currencies, protection of your private property and no initiation of violence. But nope - just couldn't resist stealing from the rich ole man who lives on the hill in the Big House. Yup, you probably thought you were pretty clever.

Sounds like one of your fantasies Michael. Is there some point here? Is there some reality here? If so, it is not evident.

Well, you got your wish. The ole man ponied up a couple handfuls of hay over to the Cattle farm. Which should make you very happy - yea for you! Then he went on over to the politician sociopaths who run the US and UK (and Japanese, Australian, Chinese etc...) governments and THINK JUST LIKE YOU and told them to start the milking machining - there's work to be done. See, they also find no moral qualms with stealing from one person (you) and giving to another (them and their rich friends).

More nonsense.

Lucky you, and I'm sure you'll be happy living in a slightly smaller stall with a slightly bigger milking machine set up next to you

Karma's a bitch - I heard.

More incoherent ranting.

Oh, as an aside, reread the Communist Manifesto again. Look at all those lovely Stated goals. They seem pretty good huh? And according to you with a more centralized government that has even more power to enforce and initiate force against any and every citizen (including YOU) why, things should be right as rain. A BIG State with lots of power run by psychopaths and indebted to the rich old man on the Hill who's pissed you stole from him - yup, they should be even better equipped and able to meet these so-called "wondrous" goals.

You are clearly demonstrating that you have fallen victim to conservative sound bytes. Just what is "big government" exactly? How much government is to much government?

You have repeatedly failed to get specific. Other than some grandiose often repeated conservative slogans, you like your leadership have never been able to get specific.

Two, you like and use the goods and services government provides. You use them daily. You just don't want to pay for them. You seem to think that only government is inefficient and that is clearly not the case. Just look at our private healthcare system - it is the most inefficient in the industrial world. Whereas our governemnt run heatlhcare, Medicare & VA healthcare is the most efficient and effective healthcare in the nation.

As for the Communist crap, it is just that. And it is fear mongering. No one in the US is advocating communism. What is being discussed is using governemnt to solve our collective problems.

Oh..... and what DO we find in States with powerful Central Governments with lovely Stated goals? That's right, we find a very patriotic impoverished ignorant nation of Cattle ruled over by a small minority of well connected rich elite - just like the USA and UK.

Just as you support.

Yes this is an oligarchy fueled and supported by people like yourself. Special interests use government to screw you and every middle class American each and every day. But you don't win freedom by carrying out you masters wishes. You win freedom by clearly identifying the enemy and taking afirmative action to fix the problems (e.g. corruption) in our government. And that begins with people like you. The problem is not government per se, it is the people who are using government to effect their will and the people such as you self you allow that to happen.

As I have told you before many times, we need to take the influence of special interest money out of our politcal system. That means a Constitutional amendment changing the way we elect officials and governing their conduct while in office.

Give me an example of a "Good" the Government produces and sells in the free-market that is not subsidized through a tax and whose purchase is not forced. Is there anything? The Post Office? Roads? Hmmmm......????

There is no magic Michael. The goods and services produced by government cost money. That is why we have taxes. Even the founding fathers knew that, that is why they gave congress the power to tax.

Social morals are what govern our overall behaviors - even today. NOT some crackpot psychopath in office.

We are animals. And it was YOU teaching your son, NOT the government. Thanks for making my point for me.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

Oh, it's relevant when Joe claims this person called "The Government" invented computers - but it's not relevant when I show how you're completely wrong - as usual I might add

Nice consistency Joe.

First I never equated or refered to a government as a person. In fact I have clearly been preaching the opposite to be true and demonstrating the fallacy of saying otherwise as you have done and continue to do.

Two, you have not shown me wrong on anything! Period!. The government was responsible for creating the internet and many other innovations that are now part of your every day existence.

Let me guess, this when you call me a Conservative atheist who supports homosexual marriage, repealing drug laws, limited role of a Central government, Ending the Federal Reserve and free markets.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

OH, yeah, you seem to be avoiding these two questions:

1
How is debt related to the creation of a new US Federal Reserve Note?

2
From where is the value derived in the interest the Chinese government receive on the Bonds issued from the USA Government? IOWs, what is it the US government is REALLY selling? What is it that the Chinese government is really buying?

Whats backing the interest Joe?

Moooo, Mooooo, MooooooooooooOOoOooooOoooOOooooooo.........

LOL, I have repeatedly answered those questions not only in this thread but in many others. The answers don't change. You just don't like the answers because they lay waste to your beliefs.

 

[Michael]

List the post number and I'll take a look. As it stands, you are avoiding answering these two direct questions. That my dear Joe, is referred to as TROLLING in internet lingo. It's considered offensive behavioral by the more civilized of the Blogosphere.


1
How is debt related to the creation of a new US Federal Reserve Note?

2
From where is the value derived in the interest the Chinese government receive on the Bonds issued from the USA Government? IOWs, what is it the US government is REALLY selling? What is it that the Chinese government is really buying?

Whats backing the interest Joe?

 

[joepistole]

List the post number and I'll take a look. As it stands, you are avoiding answering these two direct questions. That my dear Joe, is referred to as TROLLING in internet lingo. It's considered offensive behavioral by the more civilized of the Blogosphere.


1
How is debt related to the creation of a new US Federal Reserve Note?

2
From where is the value derived in the interest the Chinese government receive on the Bonds issued from the USA Government? IOWs, what is it the US government is REALLY selling? What is it that the Chinese government is really buying?

Whats backing the interest Joe?

No Michael, that is you refusing to acknowledge answers because they do not support your biases.

 

[Michael]

No Michael, that is you refusing to acknowledge answers because they do not support your biases.

It's simple Joe, post the number and I will re-read your posts. As it stands nothing you posted deals with the relationship of DEBT to Federal Reserve Notes.

Further, you indicate that "Labor" ultimately backs up bonds. So, I fail to see where we disagree on point #2. Yes, when the US government sells bonds to Chinese, the Chinese are buying our future labor. Combined with the fact that money is created through debt - leads one to conclude Americans are by and far debt slaves.

 

[joepistole]

It's simple Joe, post the number and I will re-read your posts. As it stands nothing you posted deals with the relationship of DEBT to Federal Reserve Notes.

There is no relationship between Federal Reserve Notes and debt. Federal Reserve notes are the currency of the land. It is not debt.

Further, you indicate that "Labor" ultimately backs up bonds. So, I fail to see where we disagree on point #2. Yes, when the US government sells bonds to Chinese, the Chinese are buying our future labor. Combined with the fact that money is created through debt - leads one to conclude Americans are by and far debt slaves.

No I did not indicate that bonds are backed up by labor. In the case of US debt, Treasuries are backed by the full faith and credit of The United States government. When an investor purchases a US Treasury they do so for the interest they will earn and for the security of the investment.

Two, the US does not sell debt to the Chinese. They selll debt to aurhorized dealers who in turn resell it to third parties.

 

[Saint]

Job market is better now?

 

[joepistole]

Job market is better now?

According to the data, yes. That is why the stock markets have been in rally mode for three years now.

 

[Buddha12]

The unemployment rate is still rather high at over 8 percent. The forclosure rate isn't slowing down as yet. The job market has been improving somewhat but the Europen financial problems are still bringing a slowdown to many other countries.

 

[joepistole]

The unemployment rate is still rather high at over 8 percent. The forclosure rate isn't slowing down as yet. The job market has been improving somewhat but the Europen financial problems are still bringing a slowdown to many other countries.

Consider this, the structural unemployment rate (the healthy unemployment rate) is about 5 percent. So that says we need to reduce unemployment 3 percentage points. Consider also that the current unemployment rate is down 20% from it's zenith in 2009 when President Obama entered office.

And consider one more thing, many of our European trading partners chose the austerity path, the same path our Republican brothers and sisters have and continue advocate, and look at the unemployment rate in those countries - 20%.