Hey guys, I am a regular poster on these forums and have always loved debate. I was raised a Christian. Specifically the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. I was a strong believer in the faith, as I was raised this way. But I was also raised with computers as a research tool and critical thinking. I naively came on here to understand why athiests disregard the Bible when there is proof it is real! It's hilarious now, looking back. If you would like to read that 13+ page thread, you are welcome to search my created threads or for the keywords, "a challenge to athiests" (not #2, mind you)
Now I have a huge favor to ask of anyone who reads this. My Dad knows nothing about computers. So he cant really research the religion as easily as I can, even if he wanted to. He is lazy, and since the Witnesses are so... how should I put it? Well, since they keep knocking on your door waking you up at 9 AM every month, and place magazines everywhere you look, it was easy for him to get brainwashed for lack of a better word. (Most of the members are just as naive as him, so they don't knowingly brainwashing you, they only follow the leaders of the church at their HQ located at Brooklyn, NY; from there they print out literature that indoctrinates every memeber and potential member.) He did no research into the matter. He took the biased JW's view on the Bible, and life in general and it sounded good, so he went along with it. Not researching other viewpoints. As most in the JWs have done.
When a smart person is brainwashed by lies only because of ignorance, I find it very easy for you to convert that person to the truth, if you are smart enough in the way that you go about it and the words you use. The proof is myself. I am my Dad; the only difference is I grew up in the modern era; for the purpose of this context.
So I need help. I know what some of you may be thinking:
1. Why do you want your Dad to know the truth if he is dumb enough to believe in the Bible to begin with?
2. Why don't you show him yourself?
My answers:
1. I've wondered this myself. I told myself at one time that he would be happier thinking he is going to Paradise when he dies, anyway. He will only become depressed if he knows that what he believed in for about 40 years was just one big lie. So what I did was actually ask him. If he would rather know the truth and be sad the rest of his life or be lied to and be happy. I myself would have picked the latter to be honest; but my Dad with his infinite curiousity chose the former. I was gut wrenched. I didn't know what to do.
Well you know what? My Dad is in a marriage where his wife doesn't love him and yells at him almost everyday, yet he is afraid to divorce her (Even though he can, because she committed adultery, which is the only grounds for a divorce according to the church. Beating your wife? Cut her maliciously? Rape her? Shun her? All that's fine. As long as you don't cheat on her. LOL), because he doesn't want to live alone the rest of his life because he is allowed only to marry within the religion, therefore limiting his options. You can imagine how many dumb, poor, and old hags that are attracted to the religion, lol.
I think that if he knows the truth, he will be able to date again and find someone who really loves him. That will bring him true happiness, not fake happiness.
Also, I can't bear him being lied to every day through the literature he reads. And then speak it to me like its the truth. "You know, I wonder if we will have super powers in paradise?" Or "All these people are crying over X person dying, but X person is probably going to be ressurected in Paradise, while those crying are not going to be ressurected if they don't die or become a JW before Armageddon." True story.
2. If I tell him myself, even stealthily, I run the risk of being completely shunned by my relatives, and even kicked out of the house to be homeless. If you don't believe me, look it up. This is what the society teaches to precent people from learning the truth. I would think it breaks laws, but I guess not. I see no other way than to get someone else to do it.
Why now you ask? My Dad hasn't been going to the church for about 3 months now, because of laziness, health problems and depression. He is having pains in his groin and the doctors don't know what it is, among other things old people naturally get. He is depressed because of his life. Living with someone that doesn't love him, but scared to give her up, but also cant get any responsibilities in the church because of the marriage problem, and laziness because of his depression, he watches TV, stays up late and cant wake up for church, etc.
Now the "circuit overseer" is coming through the congregation. He comes through every 6 months and spreads lies in a more professional manner, which is percieved as especially upbuilding. Everyone is expected to attend, especially if you are discouraged. Of course he wants to go, and he seems serious about it.
Given that he is kind of already having doubts, I don't think much will be needed for him to realize the truth if it is given to him in a smart manner. If anything, it will spark his curiousity. Maybe he will ask the circuit overseer the questions he cant obviously answer, and when he doesn't get a response he is looking for or maybe even shunned for even questioning the religion, he will start to see the light.
If he starts going to church again, he will get what he will percieve as encouragement. Its now or never, probably. If not, now would still be the best time.
I want my Dad to see the truth so bad that I will reimburse you for your troubles if you so desire. I have a $5 Amazon giftcard right now. I know it's not much, but I can also buy you a bot that will make you $5 every 4 days or so (it almost $5 a day, if you run it continuously, but it has a Captcha every so often, so its pretty much impossible to run it for 24 hours, unless you have someone else that uses it or something.). I can offer you this bot and not the cash used to buy the bot because the cash was already converted into another currency I cannot get back or pay you in, lol. Or I can continue to use the bot myself and give you a $5 Amazon GC every week or so until paid off.
Or you can do it for free out of the kindness of your heart, but if you really feel you need to be paid, I WILL pay you. Please don't hesitate because you are afraid of being labeled as a jerk if you don't do it for free. I understand time is money, and please just PM me if you don't want other people to think of you badly. I just ant this done at ANY cost!
I would greatly appreciate if you could do this. You could pretend to be one of his old return visits (people interested in the JW religion) and looked him up in the phone book or something. Act interested in the Bible and the religion for a little bit, asking questions etc. without questioning the authenticity of it at all, and then say, "Well, you know, I've been interested in JWs for awhile, so I looked some info up on them and found this... is this accurate or not?" Something like that.
Good information about JWs are found here: JWFacts.org and of course Google. Please PM me what you plan to say so I can make sure it is accurate and can't be reasonably disputed. If you are a seasoned religious debater, I'm sure you'll do fine on pointing out the Biblical contradictions and errors alone. Again PM me on this, as there are some seeming contradictions and even real contradictions, errors etc. that JWs have been trained to ignore. Use only the best ones, that cannot be explained, if you even go this route. He is a curious person and will talk to you for awhile I'm guessing if you do it that way. If you do it right with just the plain facts, then I think he can turn.
You could also ask him why he believes the Bible is true and point out every so called "evidence" he has. Please be stealthy in your approach, eg. Instead of saying, "There is no proof the Bible is insipired of God at all," say something like:
"I've always wondered what evidence there is that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Do you have any? I'm sure you understand I don't want to just blindly accept the Bible because it says to, Haha."
(He responds with what he thinks is evidence.)
Depending on what he says, you could either state a logical fact, or say, "Well, that's funny because I read X and it makes sense to me, does it not make sense to you?" Like if he states a prophecy that "came true" or something, lol.
This seems to be a better approach to me. Let the burden of proof lie in his hands. If you need to look something up that you don't know, don't say, "Let me look this up and I'll get back to you," because he might not answer next time you call. Instead you can say something like, "Okay. Well, very nice talking with you, you've definately cleared up a few things for me. I may be interested in a Bible study at a later date. When is a good time to call?" Etc. Then the next time you call you could say after formalities, "Well I've done some research on X and...." That way he is already talking to you.
He always thinks he's right and the society is perfect. Wouldn't even admit the society made a grammatical error.
This is good because he would rather use his own brain than look up some biased literature published by the religion. No doubt he will probably want to call you back after a few minutes he realizes he really doesn't know, so that he can get me to research it.
Google Voice offers free calls to US, so you could do that if you don't want to use your minutes, you could also pick our area code. I can help with all things technical. If you could record it (I can show you easily if you dont know how), it would be so awesome to the athiest and ex-JW community. I actually do have some website construction skills, so we can split advertisement profits if I build a website around these recordings. Especially if you can successfully "de-covert" him, which I really think is possible, as he really is a curious and reasonable man. I can spread the link around digg, reddit, forums, etc. It could even go viral.(no legal problems, as my Dad doesnt use computers at all) It's
all up to you, I'd just appreciate it if you can talk to him!
Please PM me if you want to do this and with any questions please post here. Thank you so much!
I've posted a bit more of my Dad's story here, if anyone wants to read it. I got no help on that forum as you can see, though, as it's not nearly as active as this forum, and the forum software sucks serious balls:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/222141/1/I-need-help-de-converting-my-Dad-My-Dads-Story
Now I have a huge favor to ask of anyone who reads this. My Dad knows nothing about computers. So he cant really research the religion as easily as I can, even if he wanted to. He is lazy, and since the Witnesses are so... how should I put it? Well, since they keep knocking on your door waking you up at 9 AM every month, and place magazines everywhere you look, it was easy for him to get brainwashed for lack of a better word. (Most of the members are just as naive as him, so they don't knowingly brainwashing you, they only follow the leaders of the church at their HQ located at Brooklyn, NY; from there they print out literature that indoctrinates every memeber and potential member.) He did no research into the matter. He took the biased JW's view on the Bible, and life in general and it sounded good, so he went along with it. Not researching other viewpoints. As most in the JWs have done.
When a smart person is brainwashed by lies only because of ignorance, I find it very easy for you to convert that person to the truth, if you are smart enough in the way that you go about it and the words you use. The proof is myself. I am my Dad; the only difference is I grew up in the modern era; for the purpose of this context.
So I need help. I know what some of you may be thinking:
1. Why do you want your Dad to know the truth if he is dumb enough to believe in the Bible to begin with?
2. Why don't you show him yourself?
My answers:
1. I've wondered this myself. I told myself at one time that he would be happier thinking he is going to Paradise when he dies, anyway. He will only become depressed if he knows that what he believed in for about 40 years was just one big lie. So what I did was actually ask him. If he would rather know the truth and be sad the rest of his life or be lied to and be happy. I myself would have picked the latter to be honest; but my Dad with his infinite curiousity chose the former. I was gut wrenched. I didn't know what to do.
Well you know what? My Dad is in a marriage where his wife doesn't love him and yells at him almost everyday, yet he is afraid to divorce her (Even though he can, because she committed adultery, which is the only grounds for a divorce according to the church. Beating your wife? Cut her maliciously? Rape her? Shun her? All that's fine. As long as you don't cheat on her. LOL), because he doesn't want to live alone the rest of his life because he is allowed only to marry within the religion, therefore limiting his options. You can imagine how many dumb, poor, and old hags that are attracted to the religion, lol.
I think that if he knows the truth, he will be able to date again and find someone who really loves him. That will bring him true happiness, not fake happiness.
Also, I can't bear him being lied to every day through the literature he reads. And then speak it to me like its the truth. "You know, I wonder if we will have super powers in paradise?" Or "All these people are crying over X person dying, but X person is probably going to be ressurected in Paradise, while those crying are not going to be ressurected if they don't die or become a JW before Armageddon." True story.
2. If I tell him myself, even stealthily, I run the risk of being completely shunned by my relatives, and even kicked out of the house to be homeless. If you don't believe me, look it up. This is what the society teaches to precent people from learning the truth. I would think it breaks laws, but I guess not. I see no other way than to get someone else to do it.
Why now you ask? My Dad hasn't been going to the church for about 3 months now, because of laziness, health problems and depression. He is having pains in his groin and the doctors don't know what it is, among other things old people naturally get. He is depressed because of his life. Living with someone that doesn't love him, but scared to give her up, but also cant get any responsibilities in the church because of the marriage problem, and laziness because of his depression, he watches TV, stays up late and cant wake up for church, etc.
Now the "circuit overseer" is coming through the congregation. He comes through every 6 months and spreads lies in a more professional manner, which is percieved as especially upbuilding. Everyone is expected to attend, especially if you are discouraged. Of course he wants to go, and he seems serious about it.
Given that he is kind of already having doubts, I don't think much will be needed for him to realize the truth if it is given to him in a smart manner. If anything, it will spark his curiousity. Maybe he will ask the circuit overseer the questions he cant obviously answer, and when he doesn't get a response he is looking for or maybe even shunned for even questioning the religion, he will start to see the light.
If he starts going to church again, he will get what he will percieve as encouragement. Its now or never, probably. If not, now would still be the best time.
I want my Dad to see the truth so bad that I will reimburse you for your troubles if you so desire. I have a $5 Amazon giftcard right now. I know it's not much, but I can also buy you a bot that will make you $5 every 4 days or so (it almost $5 a day, if you run it continuously, but it has a Captcha every so often, so its pretty much impossible to run it for 24 hours, unless you have someone else that uses it or something.). I can offer you this bot and not the cash used to buy the bot because the cash was already converted into another currency I cannot get back or pay you in, lol. Or I can continue to use the bot myself and give you a $5 Amazon GC every week or so until paid off.
Or you can do it for free out of the kindness of your heart, but if you really feel you need to be paid, I WILL pay you. Please don't hesitate because you are afraid of being labeled as a jerk if you don't do it for free. I understand time is money, and please just PM me if you don't want other people to think of you badly. I just ant this done at ANY cost!
I would greatly appreciate if you could do this. You could pretend to be one of his old return visits (people interested in the JW religion) and looked him up in the phone book or something. Act interested in the Bible and the religion for a little bit, asking questions etc. without questioning the authenticity of it at all, and then say, "Well, you know, I've been interested in JWs for awhile, so I looked some info up on them and found this... is this accurate or not?" Something like that.
Good information about JWs are found here: JWFacts.org and of course Google. Please PM me what you plan to say so I can make sure it is accurate and can't be reasonably disputed. If you are a seasoned religious debater, I'm sure you'll do fine on pointing out the Biblical contradictions and errors alone. Again PM me on this, as there are some seeming contradictions and even real contradictions, errors etc. that JWs have been trained to ignore. Use only the best ones, that cannot be explained, if you even go this route. He is a curious person and will talk to you for awhile I'm guessing if you do it that way. If you do it right with just the plain facts, then I think he can turn.
You could also ask him why he believes the Bible is true and point out every so called "evidence" he has. Please be stealthy in your approach, eg. Instead of saying, "There is no proof the Bible is insipired of God at all," say something like:
"I've always wondered what evidence there is that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Do you have any? I'm sure you understand I don't want to just blindly accept the Bible because it says to, Haha."
(He responds with what he thinks is evidence.)
Depending on what he says, you could either state a logical fact, or say, "Well, that's funny because I read X and it makes sense to me, does it not make sense to you?" Like if he states a prophecy that "came true" or something, lol.
This seems to be a better approach to me. Let the burden of proof lie in his hands. If you need to look something up that you don't know, don't say, "Let me look this up and I'll get back to you," because he might not answer next time you call. Instead you can say something like, "Okay. Well, very nice talking with you, you've definately cleared up a few things for me. I may be interested in a Bible study at a later date. When is a good time to call?" Etc. Then the next time you call you could say after formalities, "Well I've done some research on X and...." That way he is already talking to you.
He always thinks he's right and the society is perfect. Wouldn't even admit the society made a grammatical error.
This is good because he would rather use his own brain than look up some biased literature published by the religion. No doubt he will probably want to call you back after a few minutes he realizes he really doesn't know, so that he can get me to research it.Google Voice offers free calls to US, so you could do that if you don't want to use your minutes, you could also pick our area code. I can help with all things technical. If you could record it (I can show you easily if you dont know how), it would be so awesome to the athiest and ex-JW community. I actually do have some website construction skills, so we can split advertisement profits if I build a website around these recordings. Especially if you can successfully "de-covert" him, which I really think is possible, as he really is a curious and reasonable man. I can spread the link around digg, reddit, forums, etc. It could even go viral.(no legal problems, as my Dad doesnt use computers at all) It's
all up to you, I'd just appreciate it if you can talk to him!
Please PM me if you want to do this and with any questions please post here. Thank you so much!
I've posted a bit more of my Dad's story here, if anyone wants to read it. I got no help on that forum as you can see, though, as it's not nearly as active as this forum, and the forum software sucks serious balls:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/222141/1/I-need-help-de-converting-my-Dad-My-Dads-Story