Quad: 3rd Party Commentary

Oh good, our resident third party commentator is here for review. Perhaps we can hear some perspectives on how third party commentary should be conducted from the experts

Someone invariably does have to clean up the mess, don't they? Among my character flaws is that I self-nominate.

Did you not read my post to Tiassa, above? Apply yourself to it with at least the diligence you gave Mawdudi's work (not knowing his first name was a one-off, I'm sure) and I promise revelation.
 
???

The Great Potato Famine was a period of mass starvation, disease and emigration between 1845 and 1852

By 1854, between 1.5 and 2 million Irish left their country due to evictions, starvation, and harsh living conditions. In America, most Irish became city-dwellers: with little money, many had to settle in the cities that the ships they came on landed in. By 1850, the Irish made up a quarter of the population in Boston, Massachusetts; New York City; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; and Baltimore, Maryland. In addition, Irish populations became prevalent in some American mining communities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

The US Civil Rights movement started a century later, in the late 1950s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement_(1955–1968)

So my guess is you are confusing the term Civil Rights movement with the much earlier Abolishionist movement.

But even that movement started well before the Potato famine hit Ireland.

http://americanabolitionist.liberalarts.iupui.edu/brief.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAcivilrights.htm

I don't have time at the moment, if I get some free time, I'll trace the history of the activists. Superficially seen, it seems chimpkin is right. Anyway this is waaaay off topic but I am interested enough in the concept to look into it eventually
 
How about: comprehension is a prerequisite of cross-cultural political commentary.

Done.

(Most of the posters here have access to the media, whether they like to use it or not. If the essentials of that medium are then called into doubt in their totality, there is little reason to have a forum.)

response 1
a poster, by definition is one that has access to the media. the essentials of the medium are easily validated by hitting the post button and observing the results. the packets have reached the intended destination

are you assuming that posters here are insane?

response 2
assuming that media/medium refers to journalism presented thru print/tv/internet, asserting that posters have access is an idiotic truism at best. furthermore, it is also a given that access to this forum would necessarily imply access to other sites either directly or indirectly

what are the essentials of journalism? accuracy by way of independence and impeccable sourcing. that however is never taken for granted.

setting up a strawman where the media is alleged to have been dismissed as propaganda is ludicrous. we are a bit more sophisticated than that. some sources have more credibility than others

and that, is where we come in. we ponder, in blogs, forums and comment sections, the significance of a speech or action, we dispute takes of events by talking heads in their opeds, think tanks and whatnot. others dispute our takes.

doubt, whether in specific aspects or in "totality", of a news report, is precisely what allows us to be

to assert otherwise is, imho, the province of the feeble mind
are you making such an assertion, geoff?
 
People don't deal with issues as they are, they deal with issues as they perceive them to be.

The issue is that some perceptions are more accurate, honest and good-faith than others. Perceptions that aren't meaningfully anchored in the relevant facts, tend to be projections. Not all "perceptions" are equally valid, useful or respectable.

One's perception of an issue is what decides the stance one takes on it, yes?

Sure, and the amount of intellectual/moral humility, good-faith and honor that go into establishing that perception have a direct effect on the validity of the perception, and so the relevance and salience of the resulting stance.

The prototypical bad-faith (projection) works in the opposite way: one starts with the stance, works backwards to the appropriate perception, and discards whatever elements of intellectual humility and honor are required by that.

The former is a good-faith scientific approach, the latter is a self-serving ideological approach. Does that sufficiently express the distinction in question?

The notion that someone's opinion of an issue is "formed in ignorance and disrespectful of those actually party to it" assumes that you have a better perception

Not quite - the attempt to evaluate whether someone is projecting does indeed impose some such requirement, and a corresponding obligation to check your own assumptions in the process. But that's a side-issue from the basic observation that not all perceptions are good-faith scientific ones, as a simple matter of fact.

And it remains a do-able thing, to so evaluate, in many cases. You needn't possess any general intellectual superiority to anyone to notice when someone is doing it - it isn't a matter of ranking people in some epistymological hierarchy, but noting the blind-spots that every individual exhibits, when they are getting filled with ideology in lieu of respectful investigation. One can likewise lessen the danger of arrogance in such a program by questioning the premises and perceptions in question, and seeing what response you get. People forming responses in good faith tend to respond substantively, and revise their perceptions when appropriate. People engaged in projection and ideological exercises tend to respond in bad faith.

Which is fine, since I am reflecting my own perception of the issue, not yours.

In instances wherein one perception is demonstrably perverse, such 'reflections' are valid cause for conflict and, if the perverse perceptions resist good-faith revision, silencing them.
 
Or it could be described as an attempt to delimit what perspectives are brought to a discussion.

"Could be?" That's exactly the point. Perspectives formed in bad faith are destructive, and so the primary objective of (defensible) political speech is to undermine and marginalize them. Such pursuit being an obvious, basic feature of, for example, your own program here. And most others. The point in this thread is that the scientific/projection axis is a useful one for identifying such perspectives.

A lot of criticism at sciforums seems to embrace the view that thinking "this way" is better than thinking "that way" which to my mind seems to embrace a very narrow kind of intellectualism.

It should not come as a surprise that SciForums privileges a certain, specific types of intellectualism (scientific rationalism, specifically). SciForums is very clear about this, from Fraggle's periodic mission statements, to the rules/guidelines, to the name of the entire forum. There's a reason it isn't called "IntellectualRelativismForums," no?
 
I would certainly agree with the basic axiom, but its application is not so simple. That is, we have never figured out how to implement a policy that says one must have a clue about reality before posting their opinion thereof.

I'd take this opportunity to repeat that I have not suggested any set of rules or official sanctions be implemented to enforce such considerations - that stuff is all on Gustav, and I explicitly disclaim any support for such a program.

What I'd like to see is a community that keeps this stuff in mind, and so marginalizes/silences bad-faith perspectives directly in discursive terms, without bans or censorship or whatever. People should be free to say objectionable things, and they should end up marginalized and ignored when they choose to do so.
 
what constitutes "speaking for them"? how is this distinct from having an "opinion"?

"Speaking for them" is when you arrogate the standing to tell us what other people's opinions and perceptions are. Simply "having an opinion" is when you tell us what your own opinions and perceptions are.

The former is not an opinion. It is an issue of fact. One is making the factual claim that the views of whatever other people - not able to directly express themselves here - are of whatever nature.
 
Who gets to decide one's ability to speak for anyone or anything?

I guess you could in principle have some credible arbitrator empowered to do that. But practically speaking, and for Sci especially, it necessarily has to be a collective judgement. Members will read what people say, evaluate whether the standing matches the ambitions, and respond accordingly. "Accordingly," in the case of insufficient standing, being a response that will disincentivize such behavior and marginalize its results.

How about this:
We just ought to state what perspective we're coming from, then make our point.
That way, the reader can take the point in broader context.
Workable?

Yeah, the point of my advocacy here is to get speakers to think more carefully about this before posting, and for readers to keep it in mind when evaluating posts. I judge the consciousness of such to be insufficient currently, as we seem to persistently display a lot of problems along these lines.
 
I'm the only one not expected to have my perspective on anything which is outside "my" people,

You may recall that this entire thread was spawned by my expectation that adoucette (and others) refrain from voicing opinions on subjects they clearly do not understand on their own terms (as evidenced by, for example, their repeated use of the term "minorities" for blacks in South Africa, even after explicit correction).

And that, moreover, the demand is not for an absence of perspective, but for the cultivation of an intellectually, scientifically defensible perspective, and the derrogation of views stemming from an absence of such. I do not ask that you refrain from forming a perspective on whoever or whatever. I demand that you do such in a good-faith way, rather than as an ideological exercise that reduces Others into tokens. I make similar demands of the myriad other offenders here, and note that a persecution complex is visible in your warped perception of being the sole, or even primary, target of such considerations.

If you pay close attention, you'll see that on this forum that when people talk about limiting narratives, there is only a section of people who are continually advised to do that.

Indeed - it's that section of people pushing ideological, bad-faith narratives. I'm sure that you'll insist that this falls along cultural lines that victimize Islam or Asians or whoever, but that will just be more of your self-serving persecution complex. In point of fact, we're having this discussion because I'm applying this demand to right-wing Americans - the exact people who support the American policies you despise, and exhibit the worst instances of Othering discourse directed at Asians, Muslims, Arabs, etc.

And when people talk about me speaking for this Asian or that Muslim, they tend to forget the exhaustive debates we have had on Maoris or native Americans or the Dalits.

If you're referring to me, I'll assert that I've forgotten nothing of the sort.

The observation that you frequently claim standing to speak for "Asians," "Muslims," etc. is in no way a statement that you are a valid spokesmen for them - quite the opposite - nor an assertion that you never claim to speak for any other groups. I want to be very clear that I reject your standing to speak for these big groups (I don't think anyone can speak for "Asians" in particular). If you want to tell us what, say, Mumbaikars think about something, that's a different story.

Its easier to understand my perspective if you remember two things: one, I support the underdog and two, I am an anti-colonialist.

Nobody has evinced any difficulty in understanding your perspective, that I can see.

But its much easier to frame my discussions in other terms becuase these terms embrace a perspective which is perhaps outside the experience of many people here.

To the former: the reason that I observe you speaking for "Asians," "Muslims," etc. is because you frequently choose to do so. You post things like "Asians think X, westerners think Y" with some frequency. You are in no position to disclaim such speech as an outside imposition on you. You choose to do it, on your own.

To the latter: that's a transparently self-serving premise. A projection, in fact: you're "the underdog" and everyone else is "the Empire," subjecting you to Orientalist misconceptions (which, I'll point out, you have no standing to complain about if you want to give force to your earlier relativist line in this thread).

And to give you a concrete example of the way I think, I've wondered if the civil rights movement for blacks in the US had anything to do with Irish immigrants, because it takes people with an experience of hunger and oppression to recognise its significance in another.

Again: classic projection. You're taking your own psychodrama, and overlaying it on US politics, and reducing the various peoples involved into tokens.

Irish immigration had a big impact on the end of slavery, because the poor Irish immigrant made excellent conscripts to send to the front lines against the South. The influx of cheap labor also guaranteed that the industrial Northern economy would outcompete the Southern slave plantation economy. But I doubt you'll find much direct connection to the Civil Rights era, since the mass of Irish immigration preceded that by like a century.

Moreover, if you contend that Irish identity in the USA represents underdog-consciousness, then you should re-appraise your general perception of Americans as basically lacking in underdog consciousness. Because Irish identity is widely suffused throughout the American polity. The overwhelming majority of Americans have identifiable Irish heritage, including every President going back to, what, JFK IIRC? It's a reasonable assumption that every American you interact with on SciForums has at least some amount of Irish heritage and some level of identification with the struggles and difficulties faced by Irish people. Many are likely to be of majority Irish descent, and it would not shock me to learn that some Americans here are of 100% Irish ancestry. The US population was always the primary source of funding for IRA terrorism against Britain, for example.

There's also the small point that American national identity was formed through revolution against British imperialism in the first place.
 
You may be right, but I haven't looked at the early supporters of black civil right activists so I am also clueless here.

Admitting that you are clueless is admirable. Some people are too proud to do it, and this is the fundamental choice that determines whether a perspective will be good-faith and informed, or bad-faith and projected. This is why it's called intellectual humility.

Of course, you have to also take the next step and undertake efforts to address the identified ignorance.

It was just something that occured to me when I realised the timeline of Irish immigration preceded the civil rights movement by just a few years especially the immigrants who fled the famine

Uh, the immigrants who fled the famine came in the 1800s. The Civil Rights Era was in the 1960's. There's like an entire century in between the two.

The link is between Irish mass immigration and the Civil War, not the Civil Rights Movement.
 
Admitting that you are clueless is admirable. Some people are too proud to do it, and this is the fundamental choice that determines whether a perspective will be good-faith and informed, or bad-faith and projected. This is why it's called intellectual humility.

Of course, you have to also take the next step and undertake efforts to address the identified ignorance.



Uh, the immigrants who fled the famine came in the 1800s. The Civil Rights Era was in the 1960's. There's like an entire century in between the two.

The link is between Irish mass immigration and the Civil War, not the Civil Rights Movement.

I'm not referring to the civil rights era, I'm referring to civil rights activism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1866

Again: classic projection. You're taking your own psychodrama, and overlaying it on US politics, and reducing the various peoples involved into tokens.

I think I've said this before so I will confine myself to just reiterating the fact that I am not confined by your view of issues
 

:D So noted.

response 1
a poster, by definition is one that has access to the media. the essentials of the medium are easily validated by hitting the post button and observing the results. the packets have reached the intended destination

are you assuming that posters here are insane?

This is an assumption?

response 2
assuming that media/medium refers to journalism presented thru print/tv/internet, asserting that posters have access is an idiotic truism at best. furthermore, it is also a given that access to this forum would necessarily imply access to other sites either directly or indirectly

what are the essentials of journalism? accuracy by way of independence and impeccable sourcing. that however is never taken for granted.

Yes yes yes, this is what I just alluded to somewhere up there. Single-source is never so reputable as multiple sources, and ideologically established parties never so reputable as independents. As quadra mentioned, some perspective by any group is in good faith, and some is not. Multiple-sourcing is probably the only way to establish a firm(er) narrative of a philosophy, idea, or development.

to assert otherwise is, imho, the province of the feeble mind
are you making such an assertion, geoff?

I have always left such assertions to you, my dreary Gustav.

That's pretty good. How about a corollary: when in doubt, err on the side of respect.

Generally; but balanced against the dialectical imperative for action. I do no duck no good by pretending that she is a chicken.
 
"Could be?" That's exactly the point. Perspectives formed in bad faith are destructive, and so the primary objective of (defensible) political speech is to undermine and marginalize them. Such pursuit being an obvious, basic feature of, for example, your own program here. And most others. The point in this thread is that the scientific/projection axis is a useful one for identifying such perspectives.

True, but this only works if the arbiter of the argument possesses good faith. I have found that intellectual capacity to arbitrate objectively is vulnerable to basic illusions of reality so that people have been known to abandon basic comprehension skills in lieu of emotional... hmm what can I call it...derangement?


It should not come as a surprise that SciForums privileges a certain, specific types of intellectualism (scientific rationalism, specifically). SciForums is very clear about this, from Fraggle's periodic mission statements, to the rules/guidelines, to the name of the entire forum. There's a reason it isn't called "IntellectualRelativismForums," no?

Frankly, I find that the scientific rationalism is secondary to personal bias. But as I am still here, I'll concede that, at the moment, its a close race
 
True, but this only works if the arbiter of the argument possesses good faith. I have found that intellectual capacity to arbitrate objectively is vulnerable to basic illusions of reality so that people have been known to abandon basic comprehension skills in lieu of emotional... hmm what can I call it...derangement?

All communication has elements of politics.



In Tibetan Buddhism, they speak of the Six Confusions. Applied to communication, they are:

1. Communication as drudgery
2. Communication as war
3. Communication as addiction
4. Communication as entertainment
5. Communication as inconvenience
6. Communication as a problem


Most human communication is "deranged" like that.
 
I'm not referring to the civil rights era, I'm referring to civil rights activism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1866

In modern American discourse, the term "Civil Rights" refers to the activism around the 1960's. The stuff in the 1860s is referred to as "Civil War" or "Abolitionism" or "Reconstruction" etc. I, for one, had never heard of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 until reading your post there - it's not part of the lexicon. When Americans refer to "The Civil Rights Act" they are referring to the Civil Rights Act of 1964:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

"Civil rights activism" generally would cover everything from the American Revolution (which was all about the civil right of voting) to the present (gay equality, etc.). I see no particular reason that anyone would understand "Civil Rights activism" (in America) to refer specifically to the Civil War era. Indeed, I strongly suspect that you turned up the 1866 Act as a post-hoc justification for your initial gaffe.
 
All communication has elements of politics.



In Tibetan Buddhism, they speak of the Six Confusions. Applied to communication, they are:

1. Communication as drudgery
2. Communication as war
3. Communication as addiction
4. Communication as entertainment
5. Communication as inconvenience
6. Communication as a problem


Most human communication is "deranged" like that.

I have been disillusioned by Buddhism ever since I realised that indifference was the goal of the enlightenment. I can't abide any philosophy that is so devoid of pragmatism
 
I have been disillusioned by Buddhism ever since I realised that indifference was the goal of the enlightenment. I can't abide any philosophy that is so devoid of pragmatism

Lol.

I think Buddhism is the most pragmatic of all religions.


That said - since it is supposedly the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it - you can still look at the six confusions and see how they are reflected in the communication here, and how they help to explain the usual "derangements."
 
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