What are the questions science cannot answer?

dhc

There is still a problem here with understanding.

You ask who determines the evidence. There are organisations that are concerned with determining what is good and what is bad evidence. For example : most western countries have a skeptics organisation. These are top heavy with good scientific brains, and are very concerned with evidence. I belong to one. They provide good literature and good guides to what constitutes good evidence.

In addition, of course, good science is one of your best guides. For example : the issue of identity parades which I referred to earlier is written up in the scientific literature. I would recommend to everyone interested in science that they subscribe to, and read at least one scientific publication that delivers up to date scientific research results.

A nice one, easy to read, which is reliable with its data, and free of charge is http://www.sciencedaily.com/

You use the term 'philosophical science.' This is pretty much an oxymoron. Science and philosophy are two quite different things, though it is possible to talk of the philosophy of science. There is no such thing as philosophical science, and most good scientists would do their best to demonstrate that philosophical issues are kept at a distance from their serious scientific work.

Science is about empiricism. That is : about evidence gained from objectively carried out real world experiments and observations. While scientists often speculate, a good scientist knows that the speculation is not science. Only if a speculation can be verified by empirical testing does it enter the realm of good science.

Speculation is not good evidence. Subjective experience is not good evidence.

You ask me to be more tolerant of people. It is not people I am intolerant of. It is idiotic ideas. Yes, I am most intolerant about those, and so should all participants in this, or any other, science forum. If someone (and I am not talking about you) presents ideas that are based on bulldust, I will state most clearly that it is bulldust. Science gives us the clear cut guide to what is acceptable, and what is garbage.

There are, of course, some people who will not respond to good data and good argument. I learned that decades ago. However, if good data and good argument is expressed on these forums, there will always be some people who will respond to them properly.
 
Thats what I meant its a philosophy of science, it says your scientific panels 300 years ago were inquisition boards. That yes people of science were also religious the majority back then and thought by burning a witch you saved her soul, it was a logical act of mercy in those days.

And so your panel of likeminded people get to decide on the evidence.. all scientists... hhmmm yes that seems really fair to the average joe I'm sure. Why not make a panel of equal numbers of people from all walks of life and have them hash it out.. that would be a more complete and fair view. Scientists are quick to jump on theoritical solutions to solve problems that can't be tested and hold it up as rock solid. Well that sounds just as crazy as any type of belief to the average joe, you are placing faith in numbers and measurements.

I say there is something wrong with your definition of reality, your definition requires you to believe somehow your view of things is more righteous and worth enforcing over others. Let me take a panel or preachers and decide what evidence is... you don't get it and refuse to even attempt to look through another prism.

Nobody is any better than anyone else, being wrong doesn't make you irrelevant to society. And scientific arrogance is probably the biggest reason we aren't already walking on mars or investing huge sums of money.

What you fail to understand is from that crackpots point of view, you are the one not responding to good data and reason. Until people can at least fake the respect needed to gain a persons attention and respect back, then they may as well let the crackpots speak and not even respond at all.. let someone more able to not offend and insult take the challenge up.

However if after you have been tolerant respectful and addressed the idea and explained why you think its mistaken you get the cold shoulder and insulted.. then you have rights to say its bull. However until then saying that is an insult to the person just as much.

You shouldn't just tell that guy hes full of it, you should tel him why its wrong and give the guy a chance to digest and communicate without being put on the defensive.

Once I posted a question about modified gravity and I was almost burned at the stake, I eventually persisted to get my answers. If you don't care to be respectul and try to educate somebody, then that person just thinks your a bigot and hes right since nobody is posting any information and is just calling names.

Most times in here you are telling kids they are full of it, now how is a child going to react to that! You'll make that poor kid hate phd carrying scientists lol.
 
Let me give you an example of how a prism can affect science real quick. Now this is just my opinion but it may be pretty accurate.

I see lots of new theories coming up that deal with our universe, see our universe has so many laws and constants and fine tuned structures that if any one of them was any different we wouldn't be here. So there seems to be a grand design to our universe, most scientists are athiests so they mostly don't like this as it is. So much more research goes into theories that involve multiple dimensions, multiple universes, things that give random chance more priority than a singular universe structure theory would get.. far more acceptance is given to these theories just based on the fact of a faith in math and odds.

So any theory that gives the possibility that the laws of our universe were actually put in place by some kind of creator doesn't get as much attention. A notion that maybe we are an experiment or we are here from a design is shot down even though neither theory has no empirical evidence to back it up.
 
To dhc

Hopefully when I get into a discussion, I am at least reasonably polite. I try to avoid insulting people. However, I have no qualms about insulting wrong ideas.

Some of the things you have said sound very much like your understanding of science leaves a little to be desired. Maybe that is just me failing to understand your point, but ...

Take the following suggestion of yours.
Why not make a panel of equal numbers of people from all walks of life and have them hash it out.. that would be a more complete and fair view.

That is not science. Science is not democratic. Science has nothing to do with consensus. Science has nothing to do with sorting through opinions.

Instead, science is to do with data. Data collected from real world experiment and observation. Ideas must be tested using real world experiment or observation, and disproved if possible. Only those ideas that survive this process become scientific theories.

It does not matter a damn what people think. It does not matter if one person comes up with a solid and sound idea, and a million scientists tell him this idea is wrong. If the idea is the best model of reality, it will survive and the million scientists then have to back down.

Please get rid of your feeling that opinions count in science. They do not, and it does not matter how many people share an opinion. In science, it is only ideas and opinions that survive rigorous empirical testing that are acceptable.

Sometimes this means that a scientific pioneer has to suffer a degree of ridicule. This happened to Wegener with his theory of continental drift. However, when more data came in (from oceanographic research), he was proven correct, and his detractors had to back down.

This is what science is about. Opinion, debate, consensus, majority view and all the rest are nothing. Solid data is everything, and wins.

There is a school of philosophy called neomodernism, which claims that science is just another school of thought, and its conclusions are no more valid than any other school of thought. Let me say, with utter, total, overwhelming emphasis, that neomodernism is a load of crap, worse than almost any superstition. The only conclusions that matter are those that come from solid data. And this data is obtained from rigorous testing.

Yes, there are scientific disciplines that are not based on that rigorous testing. Examples include superstring theory, inflation cosmology etc. However, any scientist working in those fields who is worth his salt will openly admit that his field is speculative, and could well be totally wrong.

New ideas in science are worth as much as the relevent data derived from rigorous testing. If such data is not available, then it does not matter how many people love those ideas. They are not good science. (A new idea in science is called a hypothesis - a theory in science is something much more solid. It is important not to get hypothesis and theory mixed up.)
 
Chew your cud - science comes from the hebrew bible.

* * * * NOTE FROM A MODERATOR * * * *

As usual, Joseph is pretending to be an expert on a topic about which he knows virtually nothing: science. In this case, biology. He has already made a fool of himself by claiming that pigs are the only artiodactyls that don't chew their cud (the hippopotamus also does not.) On the heels of that embarrassing failure, he's back with more religiously-inspired bullshit about the same group of mammals: artiodactyls.


Anyone with a passing interest in zoology and the ability to read objectively knows that the key to the ability of artiodactyls to digest cellulose is symbiosis. The secret to their digestion is not an enzyme; they have a huge gut full of specialized bacteria.

Of course all vertebrates have a bacterial culture in their intestine. This is why taking antibiotics can give us diarrhea: it kills off a lot of our bacteria so we can't digest our food efficiently. Humans are carnivores with a relatively short intestinal tract compared to the other apes, and we have to eat yogurt or take probiotics to rebuild the culture. This is also why dogs and other canids eat the intestines of their kill and even the stool of other animals: their intestinal tract is so short that they need help maintaining a culture at all. If you feed them cheap commercial dog food full of preservatives you're killing off what little culture they have and they run right out looking for stool to eat.

However, in artiodactyls (cows, deer, giraffes, etc.) the process is more complicated. The bacteria don't just help them digest their food, they digest it for them. They process the cellulose as food and use that food supply to reproduce inside the mammal. In effect, they're turning the cellulose into protein: more bacteria. Then the mammal digests the protein. This is a very slow process so they have an extremely long digestive tract including a multi-chambered stomach, and they pass the food back and forth. Some species (but not pigs and hippos) even regurgitate it and chew it some more until it's totally digested.

All mammalian grazers (animals that eat plant tissue comprised primarily of cellulose) do this to a greater or lesser extent, using a symbiotic bacterial culture in their intestines: perissodactyls (horses, rhinos, etc.), elephants, even manatees and gorillas. Virtually no vertebrate has the ability to digest cellulose without symbiosis.

So please don't pay attention to Joseph, our resident bible-thumping lunatic. He knows nothing about science and he's just trying to mislead you. He will be taking a well-earned vacation now for his latest exercise in idiotic trolling. I'll check his ban cycle, perhaps this time, finally, it will be permanent.

It is approproate to let this thread's posters to decide if you should be banned. Your silly description "As usual, Joseph is pretending to be an expert on a topic about which he knows virtually nothing: science. " - appears a stretch if not outright bogus - it does appear I am in good company from the links below. At the very least, it makes your claim unsubstantiated, haughty, delusional and indicative of an inherent problem. Anyone can see this subject has been debated since Hellenistic times, going on to the dark and middle ages, then to modern times with scholars and scientists weighing in. Ruminate on your words - then bite hard on my silver bullet! :D

Chewing a cud is what all ruminants must do in order to eat properly. A ruminant is any animal with multiple stomach chambers and no upper teeth in the front. Because they cannot chew well they ingest their food almost entirely whole the first time. The first chamber of the stomach retains the food for a time, then forms a 'mass' called a cud, and then burps the cud back into the mouth of the animal to be re-chewed. Per day, a cow spends 6 hours eating and 8 hours chewing cud. Animals that are ruminants include: cattle, sheep, goats, llamas, reindeer, and bison.
http://www.pettingfarm.com/DPFAnimalFacts.htm#
Chewing a cud is what all ruminants must do
Let's ruminate on it
• Always chewing
Sheep belong to the ruminant classification of animals. Ruminants are characterized by their "four" stomachs and "cud-chewing" behavior. The cud is a food bolus that has been regurgitated.
• Ruminants
There are about 150 different domestic and wild ruminant species including cows, goats, deer, buffalo, bison, giraffe, moose and elk. Ruminant animals are further classified by the foraging behavior: grazers, browsers, or intermediate grazers. Grazers, such as cattle, consume mostly lower quality grasses while browsers such as moose and mule deer stay in the woods and eat highly nutritious twigs and shrubs. Intermediats, such as sheep, goats, and white tail deer, have nutritional requirements midway between grazers and browsers. Of this group, sheep are more of a grazer, while goats and deer are browsers.

The primary difference between ruminants and simple-stomach animals (called monogastrics), such as people, dogs, and pigs is the presense of a four-compartment stomach. The four parts are the rumen, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum. Often it's said that ruminants have four stomachs. In reality, their "stomach" has four parts.
• Pseudo-ruminants
Camelids (llamas and alpacas) are called "pseudo-ruminants" because they have a three-compartment stomach instead of four like ruminants. Horses are not ruminants. They have an enlarged cecum that allows them to digest fibrous materials. Animals of this type are called "hind-gut fermenters." A rabbit has a similiar digestive system.
http://www.sheep101.info/cud.html
Video Transcript
"Alright so pigs are not ruminants even though they do have a two toed hoof. They have a hoof that is split like a cow, sheep or a goat but they do not chew their cud. All of the other farm animals that we know of are herbivores pretty much and a pig is an omnivore. Pigs will eat almost anything. They actually have a digestive system that is very close to humans which is most likely one reason why we don't like the smell of pig because pig waste is not something that is attracted to us. Maybe it is a little too close to home but a pig is not a ruminant. They do not chew their cud and that is exactly what makes a pig not kosher. It does have a cloven hoof but it does not chew its cud. Its omnivorous diet means it needs some different things to eat than your basic ruminant but it also lets it grow at a tremendous rate. "


Read more: Pig Digestion: Understanding & Raising Pigs | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/video_2349795_pig-digestion.html#ixzz13W0ZqTss

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In 1966, British cultural anthropologist Mary Douglas published the influential study Purity and Danger, which made the first proposal that the prohibited foods were those that were liminal; for example, she argued that Leviticus declared pigs unclean because the place of pigs in the natural order is superficially ambiguous, since they shared the cloven hoof of the ungulates, but do not chew cud[33].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_animals


Kosher bacon?
Daniel Radosh
In response to the news that scientists are genetically engineering pigs to produce heart-healthy pork, my friend Brett asks if they can create kosher pork?
Though meant as a joke, it's an interesting question. The laws regarding kosher mammals derive from Leviticus 11, which begins, "You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud." Verse 7 specifically forbids eating pig, which "though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud." Chewing the cud is a method of digestion that is exactly as disgusting as it sounds and transforming an animal's entire digestive tract is probably beyond current technology -- but it's a brave new world out there, and if someone put their mind to this, I'm sure it could be done eventually. Presumably some rabbis would say that since Leviticus specifically mentions pig, nothing would change the prohibition. But it seems to me that the pig is being used as an example of an animal with certain traits, and if those traits are different... who knows?
http://www.radosh.net/archive/001475.html

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Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed,.... Not only its hoofs are parted, but cloven quite through, and so in this respect answers Moses's first descriptive character of clean creatures; though Aristotle (u) and Pliny (w) speak of some kind of swine in Illyricum, Paeonia, and other places, which have solid hoofs; but perhaps these were not properly swine, though so called:
yet he cheweth not the cud; and a learned physician observes (x), that such creatures that chew not the cud, so perfect a chyle cannot be elaborated by them as is by those that chew the cud, and therefore their flesh must be less wholesome; and of the swine, he says (y), they have but one belly, and so there is no rumination or chewing the cud by them; wherefore they are to be placed, and are in a lower degree than the camel, the coney, and the hare; and as they cannot digest the chyle so well as those that chew the cud, and also live upon most sordid and filthy food, the eating of swine's flesh, he observes, must produce many inconveniences to the body, as especially scorbutic, arthritic, scabious, and leprous disorders: so Manetho the Egyptian says (z), that he that eats swine's milk is liable to be filled with the leprosy; and Maimonides (a) gives it as the principal reason of its being forbid the Jews, because it is such a filthy creature, and eats such filthy things:
he is unclean to you: and so it has always been accounted by the Jews, and nothing is more abominable to them, as is even testified by Heathen (b) writers; and in this they have been imitated by many nations, particularly the Egyptians, who, as Herodotus says (c), reckon swine a very filthy creature; so that if anyone does but touch it passing by, he is obliged to plunge himself into a river with his clothes on; and keepers of them may not go into any of their temples, nor do the rest of the Egyptians intermarry with them, but they marry among themselves; the reason of this their abhorrence of swine, Aelianus says (d), is because they are so gluttonous that they will not spare their own young, nor abstain from human flesh; and this, says he, is the reason why the Egyptians hate it as an impure and voracious animal: likewise the Arabians entirely abstain from swine's flesh, as Solinus says (e), who adds, that if any of this sort of creatures is carried into Arabia, it immediately dies; and the same Pliny (f) attests: and so the Phoenicians, the near neighbours of the Jews, would not eat the flesh of them; hence Antoninus is said to abstain from it after the manner of the Phoenicians (g), unless the historian should mean the Jews; also the Gallo-Grecians or Galatians (h); nay, even the Indians have such an abhorrence of it, that they would as soon taste of human flesh as taste of that (i), and it is well known that the Mahometans abstain from it; and they have such an aversion to it, that if any chance to kill a wild pig, for tame they have none, they look on the merit of it to be almost equivalent to the killing a Christian in fight (k): now these creatures may be an emblem of filthy and impure sinners, especially apostates, who return to their former impurities and wallow in them.
http://bible.cc/leviticus/11-7.htm
Hare Chewing Cud Error
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/errancy/hare_chew_cud.html
by Sharon Mooney and Edward T. Babinski
Do Rabbits Chew A Cud?
Christian Evangelist Dr. Norman Geisler confirms he does not believe in rabbits chewing a cud in the literal modern sense, rather an observational viewpoint... and short, concise answer "No, they do not", with excerpts from dictionary.com defining what cud is, scientific research on digestion/refection in rabbits, and theologians themselves speak on hares and alleged cud chewing from the book of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
"Rabbits also produce normal droppings, which are not re-eaten."
Rabbits, cavies and related species have a digestive system designed for coprophagia. These herbivores do not have the complicated ruminant digestive system, so instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft caecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not re-eaten.
Source: Encyclopedia Coprophagia
So why are the Creation Scientists trying to compare this process with Rumination?
Edward T. Babinski: You would think that with the O.T. law that made male warriors have to walk outside the Exodus camp in order to go to the bathroom, that the Hebrews would be particularly appalled by coprophagia. There's even an obscure verse in the O.T. that contains a curse, about holding a "shit stick" up to one's nose. If the Hebrews knew that rabbits were eating something that came out of their rear end, I bet that would have made an impression on them worth mentioning. In effect, I don't think that the inerrantist attempts to try and justify the verse about rabbits being "ruminants" makes any sense. Especially since the Hebrew word means to "bring up," not poop out. More likely they simply noted the APPEARANCE that rabbits have of chewing grass for a long time, and some rabbits may have APPEARED to bring up their food again. One inerrantist mentioned a "throat pouch" in a rabbit in which it might store food and bring it up again, though I haven't found any scientific references to such a pouch, and it's far easier to store food in one's cheeks, rather than in one's throat which can choke a mammal!

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/14-8.htm

New International Version (©1984)
The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.
New Living Translation (©2007)
And you may not eat the pig. It has split hooves but does not chew the cud, so it is ceremonially unclean for you. You may not eat the meat of these animals or even touch their carcasses.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And the pig, because it parts the hoof but does not chew the cud, is unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"The pig, because it divides the hoof but does not chew the cud, it is unclean for you. You shall not eat any of their flesh nor touch their carcasses.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Also, you may not eat pigs. (Although their hoofs are divided, they don't chew their cud.) Never eat their meat or touch their dead bodies.
King James Bible
And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
American King James Version
And the swine, because it divides the hoof, yet chews not the cud, it is unclean to you: you shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass.




THE PROHIBITION AGAINST PORK
While some of the laws of Kashrut had been introduced in previous sections,4 the prohibition against pork is found in this week's Torah portion:
And the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying to them: "Speak to the People of Israel, saying, 'These are the beasts which you shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. What ever parts the hoof, and is cloven-footed, and chews the cud among the beasts, that shall you eat. Nevertheless, these shall you not eat of those that chew the cud, or of those that divide the hoof; the camel, because it chews the cud, but its hoof is not parted; it is unclean to you. And the coney, because it chews the cud, but its hoof is not parted; it is unclean to you. And the hare, because it chews the cud, but its hoof is not parted; it is unclean to you. And the swine, though its hoof is parted, and is cloven-footed, yet it chews not the cud; it is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall you not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch; they are unclean to you. (Leviticus 11:1-8)5
In order for an animal to be kosher it needs both to chew its cud and have split hooves. The Torah tell us that there are a few animals which have only one of the two signs; these animals are deemed unkosher. But only the pig-swine has split hooves but does not chew its cud, and is consequently not kosher. The Talmud therefore deduces that if an animal that is not a pig and has split hooves is ever discovered, it may be eaten. It can be taken for granted that it will chew cud.
Rabbi Hisda further said: "If a man was walking in the desert and found an animal with its mouth mutilated, he should examine its hoofs; if they are parted he may be certain that it is clean, but if not, he may be certain that it is unclean; provided, however, he recognizes the swine. You admit then that there is the swine [which is the exception to the rule]. But might there well be other species similar to the swine? That should not enter your mind, for a Tanna of the school of Rabbi Ishmael taught: 'The Ruler of the universe knows that there is no other beast that parts the hoof and is unclean except the swine...'" (Chullin 59a)
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/48943046.html
Why does the Bible say that rabbits chew the cud?

Critics of the Bible often quote this passage from the scriptures as evidence of Bible fallacies; Leviticus 11:
1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them,
2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying, 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth:
3 'Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud -- that you may eat.
4 'Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you;
5 'the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you;
6 'the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you;
7 'and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you.
8 'Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.

The intent of this passage is stated clearly. This is an identification of animals that are clean and unclean. The laws God gave Israel serve several purposes; they identify worship practices that point symbolically to Christ; they teach order in conduct; and they teach basic sanitation. If God had declared that animals were parasitic and non-parasitic, the people could not have grasped this concept. The ancient world did not understand microscopic parasites and germs; therefore God simply declared them clean or unclean.

God used the diet of the animal to identify the categories of clean and unclean animals. Predatorily animals generally are not good food sources. They are not identified here at all. The animals identified are basically scavengers and grazers. The swine is a scavenger. Pigs are prone to diseases and spread diseases through their meat. Even today, pork must be thoroughly cooked to insure it is safe to eat. The scavengers are all unclean in Leviticus. The grazing animals are clean or unclean based on how the animal is designed. The split hoof animal that grazes (or chews the cud) is clean. The non-split hoofed animal that grazes is not clean. The rabbit is unclean.

The word cud does not require regurgitation as some claim. Chewing the cud simply means to hold something in the mouth to chew it. We associate the word ‘cud’ with grazing cows because they first eat the grass, regurgitate it and then pass it to another stomach. Rabbits chew vegetation but do not regurgitate it. Both are cud chewers but the rabbit does it in one step. The most common usage today is regurgitating grass and chewing the cud, however the definition is not limited to our common usage. The Israelites understood exactly what was being said.
http://www.exchangedlife.com/QandA/rabbitCud.shtml

How about camels? No. They chew their cud but they don’t have split hooves.
How about pigs? No. The have spilt hooves but don’t chew their cud.
Simple.
Out on a Limb
Look at an animal. Look at its feet. Look at the goo in its mouth. If the foot is split and the mouth is pasty, bon appétit. The Torah mentioned these two signs. And that is all it needed to say. It taught a simple rule to determine if an animal is kosher or not. And that is what makes these verses in the Book of Leviticus 11:4-8 so unusual:
Among the cud-chewing, hoofed animals, these are the ones you may not eat: The camel shall be unclean to you although it brings up its cud, since it does not have a split hoof. The shafan shall be unclean to you although it brings up its cud, since it does not have a split hoof. The arneves shall be unclean to you although it brings up its cud, since it does not have a split hoof. The pig shall be unclean to you although it has a split hoof, since it does not chew its cud. Do not eat the flesh of these animals.
Why does the Torah list these four animals? True, they are exceptions to the rule – each animal has one sign but not the other. But listing exceptions is unnecessary. The rule is already clear: both signs, kosher; one sign or no signs, not kosher. Simple.
And if you look carefully at the Hebrew grammar, it makes it clear that these four animals are the only exceptions. The camel, shafan, and arneves are the only animals that ruminate but don’t have split hooves. The pig is the only animal that has split hooves but doesn’t ruminate.
That is a gutsy thing to say. What happens if you discover another animal with only one sign? Oops.
Why take the risk? Listing the exceptions is risky and unnecessary. The kosher laws are clear without the extra information. Think about it. People discover new animals all the time. People discovered new animals in the ancient world, too.
The ancient Egyptians had zoos. They had animals from all over Africa. They even had bears. The Jews were slaves in Egypt 3,300 years ago. It isn’t farfetched to think that some Jewish slaves visited the zoos of their masters.
Or imagine a different scenario. Maybe a rich Egyptian master took his Jewish slave with him on vacation. If he vacationed up the Nile in Sudan or Ethiopia – and wandered into the wilderness – the master and his slave saw new creatures they never saw before. Exotic beasts live in distant lands.
These are possibilities. You can probably think of a few more. And if an ex-slave helped write the Torah, he would not state: “Four animals have one kosher sign, but not both. There are no other exceptions.” He knows that someone could discover another animal. Why gamble?
The Only Exception
But is it a gamble if you know that you’re right?
The Torah was written 3,300 years ago. Thousands of new animals have been discovered. And none of the new animals are a fifth exception. Pigs are still the only non-ruminating animals with split hooves. Camels, shafans, and arneveses, are still the only ruminating animals without split hooves.
Look at this quote from the Talmud (Chulin 60b):
Was Moses a hunter or an archer? This is to answer those who say that the Torah isn’t from heaven.
Moses was not familiar with every type of animal in the world. But God was. It was risky for Moses to list only four possible exceptions. It wasn’t risky for God.
But you probably have a question: What is a shafan and what is an arneves? Camel and pig are familiar. Shafan and arneves are not. The shafan and arneves are most likely both extinct species. How convenient.
Pigs are the only animal with spilt hooves but don’t chew their cud.
If someone discovers an animal that ruminates but doesn’t have split hooves, just claim it is a shafan or arneves. Maybe the author inserted a fudge factor into the text. He covered all his bases.
But what about the pig? The pig is the only animal listed that has split hooves but doesn’t ruminate. The Torah doesn’t include an extinct animal to cover in case a new animal with split hooves that doesn’t ruminate is discovered. And scientists have classified thousands of animals since the Torah was written. Pigs are still the only animals that have spilt hooves but don’t chew their cud. Incredible.
Moses wasn’t a zoologist. He didn’t know http://www.aish.com/jl/b/bb/104491254.htmlthe Torah’s PIN number. But the author did. Who do you think he was?
A noted Rabbi was once on a trip to the zoo with his family, came upon the enclosure for the hippopotamus, and was confronted with a problem. Our Torah portion teaches that Kosher land animals are those that both chew their cud and have cloven hooves. But then the Torah goes out on a limb, as it were, telling us something which only the world's Creator could have known at the time: it specifies the four animals which possess only one sign but not the other.
The camel ruminates (chews its cud) but does not have a cloven hoof. Two other animals are listed as sharing these characteristics, and we are not certain which these are today, so we have a certain amount of "negotiating room" should we stumble upon a clearly distinct species that possesses the same traits. The hyrax is one of the two -- the rabbit is not, apparently, since it does not really chew its cud.
The pig, however, is listed as the only animal that has a cloven hoof but does not ruminate -- and this was the Rabbi's problem. The hippopotamus also has a cloven hoof and does not chew its cud, and it's not listed.
One could, of course, dodge the issue. The Torah does not explicitly say that these four animals, and only these four, possess one trait but not the other. Perhaps it was only giving examples. But if so, why does the Torah go on to tell us that fish must have fins and scales in order to be Kosher, but not provide examples such as sharks, which have fins but no scales? The implication is that in the case of land animals, the Torah is listing the only ones which could cause confusion.
Only when the Rabbi read the taxonomy of the hippopotamus did he realize that there was no problem at all. For although the name "hippopotamus" is derived from the Greek for "river horse," a more appropriate term would be "river pig." The Artiodactyl order of hoofed mammals comprises over 220 different species, so it is often divided into distinct suborders. The Suiformes include the hippopotamus, the pygmy hippopotamus (which is considerably more visibly pig-like), three different types of peccaries (also a pig-like creature, native to the American equatorial region (from the US southwest down to Brazil)), and 11 distinct species of pigs, hogs, warthogs and boars. And it is the Suiformes that are cloven-hoofed but do not ruminate!
[Genetically, dromedaries and two-humped Bactrian camels are distinct species, proving that the Torah was speaking about classes of animals. In geneological terms, there are several different varieties of camels, and if I understand it correctly, the entire family of Camelidae, which includes Llamas and a creature called a Vicugna, ruminate without having a cloven hoof. The six species of hyrax, however, are of an entirely different order; camels are more closely related to giraffes and cows. For more details, consult the "Ultimate Ungulate" home page at http://www.ultimateungulate.com/.]
http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5762/shemini.html
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Well you are missing the point and its probably my fault. I didn't mean a panel of preachers to make science facts up. I meant a panel to interpret scientific evidence and apply it towards their own view of the cosmos. You don't have to be a scientist to use some sort of logic and try to determine why we are here or how we got here. A scientist can lay out every single fact for his model of where we come from, and a layman will go down the list and be agast and stumble for lack of understanding or else possilbly the leaps of logic or faith or however you want to put it that the model is the correct answer and the only correct answer.

For example.. lets say we are using multiverse theory. A scientist looks at multiverse theory and says since there are an infinite number of universes that can exist seperate from ours, then its likely that eventually a universe like ours will spawn and be perfect to support life without the need of a grand design.. thus implicate a designer.

Now a theist might look at the same evidence and do this..

If there are an infinite number of universes then its also likely there are universes more perfect than ours to support intelligent life, then you get to super intelligent life.. it would also likely exist. When you open that up, what is super intelligence capable of? For instance we have computers that simulate the universe pretty good at our current level.. its possible a super intelligence might be able to either simulate a universe and life or actually make a universe and life... Thus we are back where we started.. are we possibly in such a simulation??

See what i mean? You have to make a leap of faith to say there are multiverses, so its just as logical to follow the logic above and come up with some pretty powerful implications.

I don't want religious people running scienctific theory and models, however I do want us to respect each others opinion and realize it doesn't really matter how we got here it only matters what we do while we are here and how we treat each other.
 
I meant a panel to interpret scientific evidence and apply it towards their own view of the cosmos. You don't have to be a scientist to use some sort of logic and try to determine why we are here or how we got here

So what kind of 'logic' would you apply to quantum indeterminancy? Especially if you don't understand what it is or how it works.

We've already seen too many times, that logic does not accurately predict what the universe does and how it does it.
 
To dhc

That is a better and sounder post than the previous one. However, it still needs a little clarification.

I am not sure that the idea of a panel means much. In reality, panels of experts are already at work. Most scientific research these days is done by teams, rather than brilliant individuals, though the team may be led by such a person.

Drawing conclusions, though, in science, does not come from brain storming. It comes from data, and the application of stringent mathematical logic to that data. In reality, if research leads to a specific conclusion, then that conclusion is inevitable as long as competent scientists are doing the work.

Certainly a panel from "all walks of life" would be worse than useless. Laypeople without the necessary education and highly honed mental skills are more likely to derive unfortunate conclusions. A panel of genuine experts might be able to contribute something.

In science, there are no 'leaps of faith'. There is speculation, and the formation of hypotheses. But these are not believed, or even considered as reasonable probabilities until rigorous testing is done, and the idea passes repeated testing.

I should also like to comment on your reference to multiverse. This is currently a speculative idea. It is, to me, a very attractive idea, and several lines of speculation lead to it. However, it is not something to which clear cut data points. So any competent scientist would admit that it is only a possibility - a speculation. Until better data is gathered, we cannot say if it is a reality. No good scientist will 'believe' this idea without a lot more data.
 
So when I speculate that the grand laws of our universe imply a creator... you will call it a leap of faith.

Thats not cool, your multiverse speculation requires just as much a leap of faith as implying a creator.

The panel is just a way to say people getting together and reaching a consensus or some kind of understanding. I was using it as an analogy to an individual and really its no different, only now the perceptions of all have a say.

My biggest problem with some scientists is how they deal with theism, they are arrogant and disrespectful. They would take an average joe, and pretty much call them an idiot simply because he knows he doesn't have time to make him understand the complexities of his concept, and he knows because he can't explain it to averge Joe in a way he will understand it without taking up months of his life.. he expects Joe to simply believe him. Now I don't know about you but a cranky old guy or an omnipetent intelligence... hmmmmm. No wonder eh?

Oh and on multiverse its pretty cool however I like infiniverse better, as in black holes don't lose information because they spawn a new spacetime or mini bang.. thus our universe is from a black hole in another universe.. and that one etc etc... However that implies the same exact rules will hold from one to another I think because one comes from the other.. you still have the grand design problem. Unless you want to do multi-infiniverses lol.

Those cosmologies are addicting
 
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So when I speculate that the grand laws of our universe imply a creator... you will call it a leap of faith.

Thats not cool, your multiverse speculation requires just as much a leap of faith as implying a creator.


You are 100% correct, and underated. MV has no scientific basis whatsoever - the notion also violates the finite factor of the universe.

A universe must have a universe maker is 100% scientific with no scientific alternatives applying.

MV is an escapist, very desperate back door around an enormous glitch in ToE, which foundation lies in an ultimately unscientific causeless effect. The science inlcines with a universe maker [sound premise], while the human emotive factor is hampered and exploited of the requirement of proof. But this proof factor is equalized and negated - there is no disproof either. The sound premise thus prevails. :cool:
 
So when I speculate that the grand laws of our universe imply a creator... you will call it a leap of faith.

Thats not cool, your multiverse speculation requires just as much a leap of faith as implying a creator.

The panel is just a way to say people getting together and reaching a consensus or some kind of understanding. I was using it as an analogy to an individual and really its no different, only now the perceptions of all have a say.

My biggest problem with some scientists is how they deal with theism, they are arrogant and disrespectful. They would take an average joe, and pretty much call them an idiot simply because he knows he doesn't have time to make him understand the complexities of his concept, and he knows because he can't explain it to averge Joe in a way he will understand it without taking up months of his life.. he expects Joe to simply believe him. Now I don't know about you but a cranky old guy or an omnipetent intelligence... hmmmmm. No wonder eh?

Oh and on multiverse its pretty cool however I like infiniverse better, as in black holes don't lose information because they spawn a new spacetime or mini bang.. thus our universe is from a black hole in another universe.. and that one etc etc... However that implies the same exact rules will hold from one to another I think because one comes from the other.. you still have the grand design problem. Unless you want to do multi-infiniverses lol.

Those cosmologies are addicting

and in return I give the rabbit digestive system
 
Again I want to clarify I am myself agnostic. I see science backing up both speculations, and I see nothing wrong with speculating about grand design on equal terms with multiverse.

Alex:

Sorry I missed over your post, I would say an avg joe that doesn't understand any concept will have to use some type of speculation or faith to make up for it. And I want to point out there is no expert on every science, so everyone has to take a little faith period. Just as there is no expert in every science so really everyone will have to take a little faith in what they are reading.
 
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You are 100% correct, and underated. MV has no scientific basis whatsoever - the notion also violates the finite factor of the universe.

A universe must have a universe maker is 100% scientific with no scientific alternatives applying.

MV is an escapist, very desperate back door around an enormous glitch in ToE, which foundation lies in an ultimately unscientific causeless effect. The science inlcines with a universe maker [sound premise], while the human emotive factor is hampered and exploited of the requirement of proof. But this proof factor is equalized and negated - there is no disproof either. The sound premise thus prevails. :cool:

Wait a minute, if I am correct then both are on equal footing as valid scientific speculation. However you view one, you should also view the other. There is also no data to prove a designer exists directly, same way as there is no data to prove there could be multiple or infinite universes.

I appreciate your support I just want you to realize what I'm trying to accomplish is a level of mutual respect, and I can understand if one side holds up their speculation that the other side will hold theirs up. Only problem is you guys have different perceptions which make one or the other more fit for you to accept.

So to me both opinions are valid and fine, intelligent design or random math through multiverse. If you chose multiverse then I respect that, I just wish that kind of tolerance was rampant in society.

However the more we address this, the more we talk to each other, the more tolerant and understanding of differing views we will become wether we admit it or not. Its social evolution in action.
 
it does appear I am in good company from the links below.
Unless my eyes are fading with age, the hippopotamus--an artiodactyl (cloven-hoofed mammal) that does not chew its cud--is not mentioned anywhere in the material you quoted.

You have not responded to the peer review of your assertion, and instead have pressed your argument forward as though it has been defended. This is a textbook case of intellectual dishonesty, the worst form of trolling on a website devoted to science and scholarship.
Too bad the ban ran out.
Don't worry, the next one will be permanent. Cleaning up after Joseph is more work than a staff of volunteers can handle, and we're getting fed up with it.
 
To dhc and Joseph.

On multiverse ideas. You need not continue to push this as an example of science gone wrong, or a science 'leap of faith'. It is not.

Multiverse ideas represent scientific speculation. As I thought I made very clear, no good scientist actually 'believes' this idea. They may work with it, looking for a way to test it. But until a proper empirical test is done, the idea is just an idea, and not taken seriously by good science.

Joe, this idea has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Thus, it is wrong to call anything in cosmology a weakness in the theory of evolution. It is a bit like those who claim that the fact we do not know how life began as a weakness in evolutionary ideas. Knowledge gaps in cosmology and the beginning of life do not represent a weakness in the theory of evolution, any more than the inability to kick a soccer ball stops someone being a chess champion.

The idea that the universe was made by a creator deity is one hypothesis that can be stood up alongside all the other hypotheses for the origin of the universe. The evidence pretty much makes it almost certain that the beginning involved a Big Bang. Did a creator cause the Big Bang? We do not know. Until better evidence is gained, we have to accept that there are many possibilities.

For all we know, the Big Bang was the start up sequence for a computer simulation. Or collision of branes. Or something else. A creator is not necessary, but is a valid hypothesis, as long as you accept that hypothesis is all it is. If you try to assert that this hypothesis is somehow 'proven', you will not be taken seriously on this forum.
 
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What happened to the Neanderthals?

Why do we sleep?

Where did life come from?

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How do entangled particles communicate?

Why do placebos work?

What is the universe made of?

What is the purpose of noncoding DNA?

Will forests slow global warming - or speed it up?

What happens to information in a black hole?

What causes ice ages?

How does the brain calculate movement?

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How does the brain produce consciousness?

Why is fundamental physics so messy?

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Can mathematicians prove the Riemann hypothesis?

Why do we die when we do?

What causes gravity?

Why can’t we regrow body parts?

Why do we still have big questions? :)
 
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