Zionism - What exactly is it?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Red Devil, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,822
    What Temple? The Israelis have dug from Ottoman right upto Canaan. The Temple is mythology



    Feel free to educate us on the national aspirations of Muslim Russians which lie in their religious homelands, whatever you think they may be.
     
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  3. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Hehe. Keep believing that, if it makes you feel better, but I pity you. I can only assume you have time to post on here because one of your banjo strings is broken.

    You wish to discuss Islam and nationalism? You lose.

    http://www.al-islam.org/islamandnationalism/9.htm
    http://members.cox.net/arshad/nationalism.htm
    http://www.haqeeqat.org/2009/11/07/nationalism-islam-a-must-read-study/

    How many more discourses would you like? Will you read these, even?
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Ho hum. Lets see

    Evidence one:

    No kings

    Evidence 2:

    No kingdom

    Evidence 3:
    No temple

    Moreover, Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Pentateuch, so much for the "eternal capital" of all Jews



    So who are the Muslim Russians aspiring for a religious homeland?. Give me ONE name - only ONE name.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    You know, I only realized just now that you do have quite the interest in (imperialist) religious archaeology. Good for you: everyone needs a hobby.

    There's actually even less evidence that Mo rode a camel up that way, unless people have found fossilized holy droppings. Or perhaps his camel produced no droppings? That's kind of hard to believe: Islam considers itself very grounded in 'reality' and cites this presumed advantage over other religions, as you have alluded to in the past. So, I think his magical flying camel would indeed take a dump, perhaps as it flew. Has anyone found such droppings? Maybe the camel - realizing the inherent, er, 'immorality' of Jewish people - would prefer to drop it on them? Maybe someone recorded the Fortean falling of several pounds of camel shit.

    Good try, Ahmet! However, there is in fact (as I delve into the unfamiliar area of Jewish religious archaeology) evidence of a number of mikveh pools around Jerusalem, and right near the Temple Mount:

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133558

    Whoops!

    Sweet! This is great stuff; sometimes I contemplatively imagine myself doing this kind of thing, uncovering fantastic sites in the ancient strata of Jerusalem. I mean, is there a greater service to the past? Although I do admit a more Indiana Jones-ish theme lurking in the back of my mind.

    Anyway - what, Sam asks, can a mikveh possibly be? Well, I admit I'd only heard of it in a distant way earlier: in point of fact, I seem to recall it from your last racist attack on Jews in which you didn't give its name.

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    Keine Juden hier! (Just kidding - ancient Herodion mikveh, many thousands of miles away from where those darn Jews ever lived, I'm sure)

    Althoughin all seriousness: just a tiny bit closer than Nablus and Mount Ebal, wouldn't you say? By the by: shouldn't Jewish authorities then be in charge of both of the latter?

    Check this out from the wiki on the Temple Mount:

    Gee. Even the Romans didn't know! And they lived in the area, were familiar with its history thousands of years before you! Gawrsh, that's hard to reconcile. Try these links, too:

    Achaemenid Persian, Hasmonean periods, and Herod’s expansion

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leen_Ritmeyer

    http://www.templemount.org/

    You might not like those references - and I know you won't - but you might try reading and refuting them. How about this one, too?:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20020210164811/http://us.geocities.com/rfaizer/reviews/book9.html

    There seems to be little doubt in the minds of most Muslims - or anyone else -that the Temple was located where the Dome and al-Aqsa were erected. It only seems to come up when there's the tiniest suggestion that maybe the Jews should have it back. Do you see an ethical conflict in this difference? Let me know.

    **********************************************​

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2010/10/sec-101005-rianovosti01.htm

    :shrug:

    Hey, check this shit out: a gang of racists in the Phillipines are pushing for a Muslim Homeland there...in that traditional place Muslims come from.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSP3702420071205?pageNumber=2

    I wonder what other homeland movements are being spawned by Islamists in other countries?

    Well, that's more than enough for now. Bonne chance la-bas.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,822
    Hmm, so you found a bath which is evidence of a temple. A Bath = A Temple

    Hmm...
    But you found a bath...

    Yeah I see what you mean
     
  9. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    51,730
    For the Great Indignant one, Zionism is synonymous with the policies of the Israeli government and the plight of Palestinian Arabs. But all it actually means is that the Jews should have political power in the form of a State, in order to address their frequent oppression at the hands of Christians and Muslims throughout history.
     
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    Oooh - more cognitive dissonance? Don't get into what the ritual bath represents, or why it might be found in such a place. Fair interpretation would probably do your argument a disservice.

    Sadly, you don't.

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    But again: don't let that worry you. Cognitive dissonance really carries no social stigma when displayed across the anonymity of the internet.

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    In short: it's unlikely you'll suffer for it.

    In the meantime, please continue to pick out single points that you think you can debate out of the entirely of my rebuttals and then pretend that the whole argument revolves around them. After all, you've persisted this long with that tactic, so it clearly must confer some kind of usefulness.

    EDIT: I forgot - you didn't cite your references. Again.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,822
    Clearly a bath in the absence of everything else can only denote the fact that it was made to replace every other archaeological evidence that would verify the presence of the people, the kings, the kingdom, the town, the population. I mean, its not like Egyptians or Canaanites or Syrians or Samaritans or Phoenicians believed in taking baths

    Here is another Jewish temple its Temple 0 at the Indus valley civilisation

    How do we know? There is a BATH. No other evidence of Jews but a BATH

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  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    You have again failed to grasp the significance of a ritual bath. Ah well.

    Anyway, don't blame me about finding baths here and there: maybe your lot should stop going around exterminating local cultures so that there's barely any evidence left of them, or else do a thorough job for once. Is all that somehow going to end up being my fault for paying my American taxes and whatnot?
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,822
    Ah no, I am waiting for the significance to be demonstrated.

    Lets see. Here is another BATH. Its falsely being called a Roman pool but everyone knows that you can identify a Bath as the presence of a Jewish Temple. And, its in Jerusalem

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    Here is another one, a mikveh bath also in Jerusalem

    http://www.biblewalks.com/Photos5/korazim3.JPG

    Here is another one, at Masada where the Roman Jewish porcine martyrs were found!

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    Clearly all you need are steps and a hole in the ground and its evidence of a Jewish Temple.

    Who needs silly stuff like ANYTHING ELSE?
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    Wow! That Roman bath and a mikvah look exactly alike! You totally didn't put words in my mouth and they totally relate to what I was saying earlier!

    Except that they don't, and you did, and that it doesn't.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,822
    So tell me, how do you know its a mikveh?

    And not a Roman bath:

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    Or a Roman bath:

    http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/16149371.jpg

    Or a Roman bath:

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    Because while that area is chock full of artifacts of the Roman persuasion, there are no aritifacts from any temple [hence no evidence of a temple of that period]

    What in the absence of any other identifying sign, makes it a mikveh rather than a Roman bath?
     
  16. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    9,391
    Nah, that doesn't work. There is Christian nation, as such, nor Hindu. Those are just religions, not nationalities.

    Because they're also a nation. Why shouldn't they be treated like any other nation?

    Although I'll note that there's no lack of states that enshrine unequal, exclusivist rights for members of state-affiliated religions. Israel's behavior in that regard is anything but rare.

    Who said they can't? There are plenty of such where I live.

    Why do Indians have to be a nation? Why does anyone? The thing about self-determination is that they aren't answerable to you.

    Meanwhile, it's broadly accepted - almost universal, actually - that nations are entitled to a homeland in which they enjoy self-determination and political control. If one is to accept the nation-state as a legitimate basis for world political organization, one can hardly complain when nations demand states of their own, and go about acquiring them via the standard means (statecraft, up to and including open warfare).

    The point I'm getting at is that this entitlement, while it sounds all nice theoretically, is really accepted because it's practically convenient. Most nations are situated in more-or-less compact areas, and so dividing the world up into corresponding states results in a relatively stable, durable set of relations. Except in certain cases, where the situation of the nations are not particularly stable or established. So, the option is figure out how to make them stable and compact, or give up on the legitimacy of the nation-state. Either option involves war - the only question is where and how much.

    That's how nation-state relations work. Each nation is entitled to its homeland - literally, a territory where they are entitled to pursue supremacist politics in favor of the nation - and disputes are settled through statecraft. This particular conflict is peanuts compared to the ones associated with setting up the system of nation-states in, say, Europe and Asia (the World Wars). That's why the system sustains it.

    How they want to identify, and what political implications such an identification carries, is up to them. It's not for me to say.
     
  17. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    721
    Because you posted trash about Hindus, even when Palestine does not concern them. For too long India allowed heart to dominate head on this issue. Now India treats Israel realistically.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010
  18. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    Except the mikvehs. How do you know it's a Roman bath and not a mikveh?
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,822
    First, mikveh can be anything from a well to a swimming pool.

    http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1541/jewish/The-Mikvah.htm

    It can be as simple or as as elaborate as people want to make it. There is really no distinguishing feature that would make it stand out. Its like the sinks you have for wudu outside mosques. Its only the presence of the mosque that distinguishes it from a normal bath in a home or in a courtyard. In the absence of any other evidence its highly ridiculous to say the bath is a mikveh. It would be the presence of the temple which would confirm it as a mikveh. Even the so called mikveh near Masada is probably a Roman bath, considering the remains found there were more likely Roman soldiers.

    Plus, most importantly, the Israelis have a history of damaging archeological finds which belong to non-Jewish history and lying to support their narrative.

    But even if we were to consider them shining examples of integrity, there is simply no evidence that supports any aspect of the whole OT stuff. The whole thing has become the refuge of desperate religious fundamentalists who will grasp at any straw [or bath] to to wrap a kingdom around. Its like finding a horseshoe nail and using it to insist that the place was a battleground. Even the people who insist that the Mesha Stele's David is King David are hard put to explain why no mention of him is made in any of the contemporary histories. The whole time period of the "glorious" Jewish kingdom is, in reality a time of great impoverishment of the Levantine. So no matter how you wing it - it just cannot be real.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010
  20. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,782
    Zionism is the movement for the restoration of the Jewish nation to the lands their ancestors where evicted from by the Roman Empire post 70AD.

    I agree that one can be anti-zionism without being anti-Jewish.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  21. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,782
    Two forces at work though history in Europe causing this.

    1) European peoples seeking to keep Jews as outsiders in their nations. Not accepting Jews as truly fellow citizens. Shunning them.

    2) And many Jews seeking to be separate from the gentiles they live with, so as to preserve their sperate culture. One that they have deemed superior to the surrounding culture.

    Put 1 and 2 together makes Jewish integration for the most part of European History unachievable. because the forces maintaining separation where greater then the forces seeking integration and acceptance.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    Ooh, a 1st-century swimming pool. Say on.

    So you're saying you personally don't know what it is. Thanks, but I'll go with the Dutch guy.

    I'll comment on your insults by reminding you there's no evidence of anything to do with your faith, either.
     
  23. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    5,303
    Do you have any references to the historical eviction of Jews from their homeland by the Romans?
    Do you know how long it took, and how many legions were needed? How much did it cost the Empire?

    Why was an eviction carried out in this particular part of the world, when there is no evidence that the Roman Empire did anything like this in any other conquered territory? The Emperor must have been really pissed at the Jews, I guess.
     

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