Zimmerman trial is sparking racial tensions

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Username, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Says the person who, via the wizardry of cognitive bias, posted another god damn News STORY.

    "A 2012 study by PBS's Frontline is getting a second look post-Zimmerman's exoneration, and it reveals that if you're going to kill in self-defense in America, you'd better be white. By analyzing data from a study by John Roman, senior analyst at the Urban Institute's Justice Policy Center, Frontline found that in "Stand your ground" states, white people who kill black people are 354 percent more likely to be found justified in their killings. And it doesn't get much better in non-"Stand your ground" states, where that number goes down only to 250 percent."

    I linked a full DECADE of statistics. Why the link was broken I'm not sure, it was working, it should be fixed now - see: two post's above this one.

    The FACT is homicide is going DOWN in the USA. Violence is decreases - including gun violence. The FACT is most Blacks are killed overwhelmingly by, other Blacks and most White kill themselves. While the MSM would LOVE the masses to think otherwise - the is NO RACE WAR. We have a BLACK President, a Black Secretary of State, and etc... The biggest problems 'Blacks' face is Government! Government services are literally poisoning their community's to death. There are MORE Blacks in prison in the USA, than in ALL OF AFRICA. Thank you War on a Weed. Thank you Minimum Wage. Thank you Fiat Money and Labor Tax and Progressive Demagoguery.
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Of course it is. "Free market" is an economic term that has nothing to do with civil rights. You can have slaves in a free market, as you can have women unable to own property, a rigid caste system etc. Indeed freer markets than we have today have flourished under stifling civil rights oppression.

    Again, you are confusing two completely different topics. It's like claiming that in a free market all medical care should be free. Because it has that word "free" in it.

    Right. He should instead give it away for free because he is in a free market.
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    I hate to respectfully disagree, so, I'll just post a WIKI Definition: Free Market

    A free market is a market structure in which the distribution and costs of goods and services, along with the structure and hierarchy between capital and consumer goods, are coordinated by supply and demand unhindered by external regulation or control by government or monopolies. A free market contrasts with a controlled market or regulated market, in which government policy intervenes in the setting of prices. An economy composed entirely of free markets is referred to as a free-market economy.

    Now, as you well know, a SINGLE example of a Black Swan will forever end the Hypothesis "All Swans are White". Do we agree? Yes. Good

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    Do explain how human Slaves, that is, the supply of labor, can be in any way shape or form 'free' market participants unhindered by external regulation or control by government? If we are forced to pay a labor tax in United Stated Federal Reserve Bank Notes, literally FORCED at the point of a gun, coerced with life in a rape-cage, due tell how we are 'free' market participants unhindered by external regulation or control by government?

    I fail to see how the social effect of force can in any way be divorced from the "free" in the words "free market". Just what is it, exactly, you think when you read the word 'free'? Because clearly we're thinking two completely different concepts.

    NOTE: Your use of the word "Economists" is verging on a an appeal to authority... No? I do agree we desperately need to resolve what 'free markets' are, but let's not throw the ball entirely over to the "Economists" ... huh? They're not called dismal for nothing

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    Lastly, as you clearly understand my POV (I think) then how shall we refer to 'free' markets, including civil liberties and voluntarism, if not as 'free markets'? Is there some other term you'd prefer?

    So as not to defer from Zimmerman, and we all know how much we love our reality TV drama's, you do agree with me that regarding the MSM race-baiting at least? If the MSM is there to 'Inform' the public, educate the masses, ensure a proper 'public' discourse; then why is it they're pumping up this news STORY as if it were anything but? Despite what the MSM would have us believe, there is no race-war in the USA. Exactly the opposite in fact - not to mention we elected a Black POTUS. While the MSM would have Americans believe society is becoming more dangerous, and we should roll-over and give up more civil rights (See: NSA), the truth is there is LESS violence. It's why I can't stand the MSM. There's a despicable reflection of the bored with life Reality TV obsessed culture that passes itself off as civil society. People WANT to believe the lies to give their pathetic existence a splash of drama. A water-cooler talking point. Meanwhile the real News, that the more immoral of our social institutions, the Federal Government (the very LAST people you'd dare entrust with a modicum of power) has been bought and paid for by the Banks who now rule us. If you think that's hyperbole, try not accounting for your labor to the Federal Government using your friendly Federal Reserve private bank issued Banking Noted labor tax. If you think we live in a free market, well, I'd think again...
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  7. Capracus Valued Senior Member

    There are no such facts in this situation, only Zimmerman’s uncorroborated self serving account. If it had been taped, it may have shown that Trayvon mounted an assault in response to Zimmerman’s attempt to draw his gun, then it would be Trayvon acting in self defense. This version might explain why Zimmerman’s hands were not in a position to defend his face from the punch of Trayvon, but were instead lowered to draw his weapon.
  8. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    I agree with this; well put.
    It would "seem" a natural inclination to protect one's face from a fist coming at your face.
    May I ask...was this an admission of Zimmerman? The part about his "stance" when the altercation began or are you saying this could have been a plausible scenario?
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Which is reporting legitimate research, please show me a statistical study which disproves this one.

    Who the fuck is talking about a race war? Who is denying these facts? All I'm saying is that there is still racism in this nation, that the police are racist in general: when less black people smoke pot then whites yet are ~3 times more likely to be arrested for pot possession! When a black man shoots a white man and claims self defense he is 3.4 times more likely to be convicted of murder/manslaughter than when a white guy shots a black man and claims self defense. Clearly there is racial bias in are policing and judicial system and even society in general, that all I'm saying, not some fucking race war!

    and here we go into your politics of free market solutions: free market without regulation would enslave these people again. No minimum wage would mean getting paid a few cents an hour like in 'developing countries' which are your free market paradises! Thousands of years of human history, since the invention of civilization, is filled with the rich taking for themselves and fucking the poor and you somehow think that a unregulated system in which the rich can go about willy-nilly will somehow alleviate this injustice?

    Population of Africa: >1.033 billion (of which a majority are black)

    US incarceration black population: ~1 million
  10. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    pretty sure he meant blacks in prison in africa. I'll admit when he gets on his government kick he says some pretty stupid stuff but that interpertation is even beyond him.
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Your claim was that the dissimilar MSM reporting was of similar cases, indicating bias. I refuted that assertion - the cases were significantly and relevantly different in many ways, and I listed several based on your own links and evidence.

    So you, if you were not confused by your gullibility in the face of confident assertion by dumbass "libertarians", and not getting your "news" from racial bigots and ignoramuses, could have seen them for yourself.

    You have it backwards - slavery is only prevented (if it is) by States, and free markets in an industrial economy exist only under State governance - very good governance, one might add, as they are difficult to maintain.

    A short review of the historical and anthropological record will show this to you, and I strongly recommend that, rather than rightwing crackpot websites, as a foundation for one's reasoning.

    And that is relevant to the thread, because these racially bigoted and crackpot sites are boosting the level of racial tension considerably in this case - they are creating a large fraction of Americans lead to believe that the facts indicate that Martin was a violent and thuggish teenager who attacked a reasonably behaved and well-motivated neighborhood do-gooder, forcing said do-gooder to shoot in self defense, and that the uproar resulting is therefore unwarranted and without good motive, an example of the foolishness and bad character of black people in general.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    No, we have a history filled with State predation on their citizens/livestock. True free markets never existed, but where regulations were lowest prosperity ensued.

    I'm saying there's more blacks in US prisons than blacks in African prisons. Now, given YOUR data point, that should tell you something. Oh, and it's not Apple whose putting blacks in prison. As a matter of fact, Apple Inc is totally color blind when it comes to selling their products to blacks. Again, given your own statistics, compare with the way the State deals with blacks.

    Are you really so afraid of Apple?!? Toyota? Honda? Google? Why?! It's clear as day these companies are color blind. It's also clear as day the State isn't.

    Lastly, regarding minimum wage, I can understand why you believe we need a minimum wage, but that's only under the current fiat system where the State counterfeits money to purposely create inflation. But, with sound money, things become cheaper as productivity increases. We are much more productive today, but workers harder and getting less than 40 years ago. Selling labor is no different than selling coffee or blueberries. The only reason labor is cheap and can be bought at such a low price is because we're churning out workers from PUBLIC School/Education Factories. We also use PUBLIC licencing and PUBLIC regulation to prevent workers from becoming owners. So, if you really want to help workers, then you'd want sound money and free-markets so that workers are in demand and the price of their labor raises.
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Are you kidding me?! Slavery was legal in the USA. The only reason it ended was because the industrial revolution created enough prosperity to allow Christians in England to take up the cause of emancipation. The cause developed from the PRIVATE sector, individuals from the ground up. As a matter of fact, for most nations, as soon as the State stopped returning Slaves, Slavery ended without War. The USA being an exception because the Civil War wasn't really about ending Slavery but about preventing the Southern States from succeeding. Many Southern States agreed they'd end Slavery - and they were still attacked! Not to mention German farmers in the South had proven their farms were more productive paying for labor compared to Slave labor.

    The productivity gains in a freer market ended Slavery.

    As for the minor differences in these two cases, you can think what you want. I know for a fact the only reason people are talking about this case is because the MSM race-baited this into a story about race. Something that doesn't actually exist. One could argue they're perpetuating a fallacy and you're helping them.
  14. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Shouldn't religion be confined to the religious section rather than dragging a thread on racism off topic. I'm sure there was a rule about
    Not to mention
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Slavery did not end in the US, Haiti, Brazil, Cuba, etc, because of Christians in England. The abolitionists in England fought against the free market capitalists who owned the slaves for a generation or more, their moral and ethical and political arguments finally getting enough government support to authorize a buyout of the free market capitalists - and that's how slavery ended in England, with the government using tax dollars to buy the slaves from the free market capitalistic slaveowners, just as any government taking valuable and profitable resources from the free market private sector must compensate them now.


    The Southerners, led by free market capitalist plantation owners and nascent industrialists (who were just beginning to see the value of slave labor in factories etc), were seceding to keep their slaves, and for no other reason.
    More bullshit.

    This kind of nonsense is part of how the racism behind Zimmerman's assault and acquittal has been maintained over the years. The Confederate sympathizers have to rewrite history to avoid the obvious moral judgements and character assessments that the actual basis of their opinions would attract.

    Name the country where that happened. Not England - In England's empire, slaves were so profitable it took a very large chunk of the entire English revenue to minimally compensate for their loss. Not in the US: In the US slavery was expanding into new territories and the Confederacy was rapidly setting up a system of leased and rented slave factory labor to support a growing industrialization.

    And I can think your reasons for ducking the matter are pretty obvious.
    So Martin's race doesn't exist, but racebaiting his killing does. Got it.
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    If you want to know why racism persists, then instead of running around like a chicken with one's head cut off, or being led around by the nose by the MSM and their idiotic race-baiting story about a "White" Hispanic (with a black grandfather, who tutored black kids and defended a black homeless man against the Police in a public forum - at great personal risk to himself), then perhaps you may try to look past your propagandized distorted view of the State and see it as the single most racist institution in our society - as has been shown time and time again to statistically target races.

    Or you can keep running around like a chicken.

    *Caaaluuck Cluck*
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    In one case we have a black man found innocent of shooting an unarmed white 16 year old (who hadn't even physically touched him but did look menacing) and in the other we have a Hispanic man who shot an unarmed black teenager who was pounding his head into the cement. Both men were found innocent.

    Oh, but let's fixate on the "White" Hispanic with the Black grandfather because the MSM tells us that this is important - even though all the Statistics over the last decade show violent crime is reducing YOY (much to the chagrin of the MSM) and overwhelmingly if your 'black' and get shot, it's going to be by another black person. If you're 'white' and get shot - you probably did the shooting.

    Martin's race doesn't exist. Race-baiting OTOH very much exists. Gods don't exist, but religion does a pretty good job of getting people to kill and hate one anther over them.

    Making some sense yet?
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Which I did not do, did I. Instead I listed several significant ways in which the two cases differed, ways which completely explain the difference in the media handling of them. Your claim of suuporting evidence for media racebaiting is thereby refuted, your attempts to change the subject to Zimmerman's grandfather or whoever and similar bs from you is ignored, and you are shown to have been mistaken in your original claim. See how that works?

    Nope. But you've make your "thinking" so clear that further argument is quite unnecessary - you have accused the government of statistically targeting the existential equivalent of mermaids, and doing great damage to the nonexistent thereby, and I can't top that.
  19. Layman Totally Internally Reflected Valued Senior Member


    I knew Travon Martin was a drug dealer. Why else would he be talking to some women that had swallowed an inter-tube?
  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Pure bullshit, and without evidence! You said so your self that a true free market has never existed yet your so dam sure it will work!

    Its the USA prision COMPAINES! They lobby goverment for lucrative prision countracts, they lobby for tougher laws and prision sentances, all for more money! when companies start making the rules this is what we get!

    Colorblind? Who builds all those Apples products, not white people! Why?, because they can go to an asain country with much lower standards of living and lacking working regulations and work these people like slaves! If it was not for rules and regulations companies would murder their employee if it ment a profit! This is silly you know dam well companies care only for profit, they will do anything for profit, in a world without rules they would make profit every way they can, fuck morality!

    Productivity can't keep increaseing: Two reasons, first their is a finite amount of energy and material to work with, if we continue to grow at 3% per year by the 23 century we will demand more energy then sunlight hitting the earth, by the 30th century more energy then the sun produces, by the 37th century more energy then the entire gallaxy produces! Sustainable growth is physically impossible: we will stagnate! In fact the lack of much growth in the developed world and the slow down in population growth on average worldwide is clear sign we are starting to stagnate already.

    Second, demand is not inifinite! Billy Gates could buy thousands cars for himself, does he? In fact the man does not consume much more then an average middle class consumer, as a person gets richer their consumption does not grow to match but falls off logarithmically. This is part of the reason economic growth is slowing: consumers have limit demand: there only so much they would buy even if they could. And with population growth slowing the future pool of costumers is going to be limited. Countries like Japan are familiar with deflation and all it does is stagnate their production to match their stagnate demand!

    The price of labor is only going down! With machines getting smart and more productive human labor will only be able to compete at lower and lower prices! Evnetually the minium amount of energy to feed and house a human worker will be higher than the electricity and maintance of a machine worker, no amount of deflation will fix that! Educating the people for higher tech jobs will be like trying to put 10 people into one seat: there simply not going to be enough jobs left and more improtantly most people are too stupid to be able to do them anyways! What we need to do is educate people into becoming investors, we need to loan everyone money in a highly regulated fashion to invest in stocks and bonds and mutual funds: everyone needs to become capitalists, not laborers! Of course a simpler solution is just give everyone a stipend, welfare, socialism, but hey captialism is so adaptable and we know the system works for the rich, so just make everyone (rich) capitialists.
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Among the many and significant differences: coffee can be taken off the market - the grower does not have to grow, process, and sell if the price is too low to make it worthwhile. The laborer cannot do that.

    Trayvon Martin, for example, was facing the necessity of selling his labor in some fashion for whatever the market was, and being despised while doing so - much as he has been by those attempting to justify Zimmerman's killing of him.
  22. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

    Trayvon Martin had no police record whatsoever.
    Zimmerman was once charged with resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer.
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    What are you talking about? I posted an exact time frame. From the end of the Civil War until the creation of the Federal Reserve. This was the most prosperous period in all of human history. While not a total 'free-market', it was about as close to one as anyone society has gotten. It was Libertarian laissez-faire Capitalism and by the end of it, black Americans had a higher literacy rate than Detroit and Chicago in the year 2013, one hundred years of Federal Reserve later.

    Yup, that's called Fascism. We live in a Progressive Fascist society.

    They lobby the who? Who was that they lobby? Who???

    OHHHHH The lobby THE GOVERNMENT. I wonder why they do that and don't just go round up people? OHHHH because the root of the Evil is the one institutions that CAN LEGALLY ROUND UP CITIZENS for the 'Crime' against the "Public" of smoking a naturally grown organic herb. You know, because "THE GOVERNMENT" is looking out for the "Good of the Public" and if we didn't let THE GOVERNMENT run it's Fascist schemes... why, we simply wouldn't love the Children/God/Uncle Sam/Good of the People/Good of the Nation and we'd be Traitors/Infidels/.... blah blah blah....

    This is a complete lie. Asians are more than happy to take work Americans don't want. They are not Slaves (and pretending they are is actually a slap in the face to the history of real Slavery). Chinese work in factories probably more modern and of high quality than my grandfather. As a matter of fact, as I've worked for GM, I can pretty much promise you that the Apple factories ran by Foxx Com is why better - they MUST BE because they have to be nearly sterile to assemble many of the parts.

    China's GDP is predicted to overtake the USA's in 2017.

    I agree, productivity can't keep on increasing. My arguments is we're not enjoying the fruits of our productivity. Because we don't have sound money, our labor is not properly accounted for, and we're simply being sold out by the banks.

    Yes, again, I agree - the root of the problem, as it says in the good book, is money.

    We need sound money, which means we must end Income/Labor Tax and bring in currency competition.

    Firstly, profit is a healthy aspect of society. Profit in a free-market signals to the producers to make more of that item. Loss of profit signals to stop and make something else.
    Secondly, again, we live in a Fascist Warmongering State, not a free-market.
    Thirdly, we need sound money.

    I have one question: In the next 20 years 3D printers are going to give pretty much anyone, the ability to produce. This means all of those Wallmarts we have now, well, those will be shuttered. No need for all those Chinese factories either. Just buy some powdered plastic and metal from GE et.al. on-line, have it delivered to your home and print whatever clothing you want, plastic goods, electronics, etc.... WHEN THAT DAY COMES, and all of those jobs are lost, will we be a more or less prosperous society? Because, from what I can gather, you're making the argument we'll be poorer. And that's simply not true.

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