Your War on Terror

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Jan 13, 2004.

  1. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

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    1,766
    Oh Yeah, Israel does worse, they send their planes to bomb palestienans sleeping in their homes, something more disgusting than the suicide bombers.

    Beside: ' what is the difference between Palestinean suicide martyer using the only mean available to him to deliver the bomb and an Israeli pilot wrapping himself with AMERICAN F16 to deliver the bomb ???????????

    http://www.koshertaxscam.com/atroc

    Build your RACIST WALL on your land not on the palestinean land, but again, since when the jews were that considerate about others ??

    what a load of bullshit, Israel was kicked out from lebanon in 1982 by the Syrian army and later in 2000 and after 20 years of war with SMALL group of freedom fighters ( Hizbollah ) Israel was defeated and was forced to FLEE south lebanon...

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    Are all jews like you ?? it is you who create them...because you jews know very well once we have democracies in the ME, your terrorist state will evaportate.

    Terrorism is like beauty, it is in the eyes of the beholder.

    Like the zionist jews.

    Islam is now stealing the sleep from your eyes....you are very scared from small bunch of the so called 'extremists'' !!

    I did not know you speak on behlaf of America !!

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  3. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    Posted by Proud Muslim

    The American government need to be seen as FAIR and JUST regarding Muslim causes all over the world ( we dont hear America complaining about the BARBARIC Russian treatments of the chechyen muslims, the same regarding the Kashmiris in India, the same regarding the treatment of Muslims in the Philipenes ).


    What the hell do you mean by Kashmiris in India? Do YOU Know what the real issue of Kashmir is? Did you know that Kashmiris are a subject of terror in India and they have been terrorised by the the Pakistan Ocuppied Kashmir training camps.

    When you said dictator; you should have said President Musharraf.His duality and inefficient administartion has become talk of town.He recently let a Nuclear scientist go away after he leaked information to Iran etc! How did he? Needless to say that Pakistan's Dictator is not sure how much havoc he has caused and the whole world knows what exactly has happened,and that Musharraf was an accomplice in doing so.

    India has been subjugated to terrorism for almost a decade now.America was attacked only once which killed many people.My condolences,But in Case of India America refuses to admit that Pak occupied Kashmir has Terrist Camp despite the information given to them on a regular basis.

    Did you know that free and Fair elections were held in Kashmir recently?And Zillions of poeple participated in these Elections.

    Pakistan says,Kashmir is an issue.Yes it is.POK is an issue and India wants this POK back and reunited with Kashmir.Pakistan says,kashmir needs to be in Pakistan because of Muslim population and do you know that terrorists regularly target Hindu Kashmiri Pandts there so that they could leave Kashmir?Not only that Sikhs were Targeted recently by militancy in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.

    India tried Lahore peace process,and look what happened?!! They did Kargil? right? and who was the leader of Pakistan then? Nawaz Shariff? what happened to him,he was sent to exile! just when peace process was around the corner.
    Both nations are trying hard today to find their lost brotherhood back.India and Pak faught their independence together under Mahatma Gandhiji.Pakistan is fond of Bollywood films,Lahore loves Indian Films and serials.Indians Love Pakistani plays.Both the countried speak same langauge.Both the countries have common passion : Cricket!.You mustnt forget: there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan.And they live excellent lives.And contribute to worlds fastest growing economy.

    bye!
     
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  5. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    Engrez,

    I am grateful to you for clarifying India's position on War on Terrorism.It has experienced this phenomenon for a long time.And all of this has been agenda of POK camps,needless to say that Pakistan knows about this,But situation has become uncontrollable in Pakistan too recently.Indians have raised these issuess in front of U.S. lots of times.The U.S.in recent times has provided India with great help.FBI offices have recently been opened.But India asserts that it wouldnt require any mediation of U.S.,since it would like the talks to be bilateral.Pakistan and India are moving towards a solution which i hope would be a peaceful end to the whole process.Both the countries have recently warmed up their cold relations.As i said earlier,Pakistan and India know each other,they just need to sit down and have a heart to heart talk on issues.POK camps will be an issue raised in Pakistan.I am sure Musharraf wont faler this time.Also,i think India warned to world recently about the leakage of Nuclear Secrets.This is where India has an advantage of Political maturity.India has an outstanding record of Secularist culture with some minor incidents happening here and there and is sole example which it presents to all the other third world countries as a stable democracy for more than 50 years.India is moving fast towards Capitalism,as Disinvestment continues,The countries has shown great signs of overall growth with heightened up stock markets due to openness with foreign investments.

    Let Kashmir issue not be a Nuclear flash point.Indians have had enough of this Terrorism.Muslims in India (As a Hindu,I have many of them as great pals) are amazed at what these imbecile jehadies and their Agenda.Quaran's mentioned Jehad needless to say has lost its meaning .

    bye!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2004
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  7. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    What's the difference between a bank robber that kills an innocent person and the cop who, in the course of shooting him, also kills an innocent person?

    According to your views on Saudi Arabia, a country should be allowed to do what they wish, including restricting the travel of certain minorities.

    No, most Jews are not atheists. Yes, when the ME consists of peaceful democracies, Israel will not have to fight terrorism anymore, and will cease to be accused of it.

    Zionism is no longer an issue, the Jews have their state, and yes, they are closed minded enough to not even consider dissolving it.

    I don't know what you mean, it is perfectly legal to hate Islam, and even promote bigotry. It is public opinion, not federal law that must answer it.

    Yes, that's true. What's your point?
     
  8. joe smith Registered Member

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    12
    Jews have an undeniable right to their homeland. They occupied Judea two thousand years ago and they occupy it again today as Israel.
     
  9. Pakman Registered Senior Member

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    212
    Bad analogy. Israel has the decision on whether they want to target terrorist leaders in civilian areas or not.

    I'm sure the Middle East can set up a democracy once America stops supporting monarchies and dictatorships there.
     
  10. Pakman Registered Senior Member

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    212
    So do the Native Americans in America. They been living here for hundreds of years. So they have an undeniable right to their land. Why not give it to them?
     
  11. Undecided Banned Banned

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    4,731
    Jews have an undeniable right to their homeland. They occupied Judea two thousand years ago and they occupy it again today as Israel.

    Jews have a right to that land, but not now.
     
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,894
    9/11 Update: Bad Guys blank World Fellowship

    Updating the score as we head to the next inning.
    The score has changed.

    At present, the bad guys are blanking the rest of the world. Justice, thus far unaccounted for in the War on Terror, may well be the only actual beneficiary of this new development, as Mounir al-Motassadeq won his appeal against conviction, the German Federal Criminal Court threw out the verdict, and ordered a new trial. Presiding judge, Klaus Tolksdorf, said the evidence against Motassadeq was not sufficient for a conviction.
    According to the BBC, Andreas Schulz, a lawyer representing American relatives of victims, said that the verdict would "surely meet with incomprehension" among his clients.

    As we go to the break, preparing for the Spring Offensive, the score:

    Al Qaeda: 2,749
    World: 0

    An appeal to President George W. Bush, Jr. -

    Mr. President? Mr. President?! All eyes are on us, in a way. Surely, the situation isn't incomprehensible to you, is it? Admittedly, the families of 9/11's victims need justice, and it may well be that their incomprehension will not be of the fact that the Motossadeq conviction has been thrown out, but perhaps it will be more directly related to the question of how this was allowed to happen. German judges seem to have made it clear throughout that they think this man is guilty. But they cannot and apparently will not set aside the rule of law, which is the declared foundation for justice, in order to tack Motossadeq to the wall.

    The evidence compelling this decision comes from fragments acknowledged unofficially to come from Ramzi bin al-Shibh, currently in American custody. The BBC reinforces the standing notion that the United States government is not doing enough to assist its international neighbors in the prosecution of known terrorists.

    Did I say, "us"?

    I meant, "you."

    All eyes are on you, Mr. President. As it stands, Al Qaeda is shutting us out.

    Please, sir, help the world help us.

    The irony of it is that if you actually did, as conspiracy theorists suggest, have bin Laden tucked away somewhere to be hauled out as an election surprise--a most distasteful accusation, I admit--now would be a very good time to pull the rabbit out of your hat.

    As you launch your advertising campaign for re-election, as you tell Americans so eloquently that you know what needs to be done, your critics have launched their first salvo--If you know, why isn't it being done?

    Perhaps, Mr. President, you might bear in mind that if security must come before both freedom and justice, you can help secure the nation greatly if you assist other nations in the prosecution of persons accused of facilitating the attacks which destroyed our towers, killed 2,749 people, and shattered thousands, if not millions of American lives.

    All eyes are on you, Mr. President. All eyes are on you.

    • BBC. "9/11 prisoner wins German retrial." March 4, 2004. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3531501.stm

    See Also

    • BBC. "'We're Canada's al-Qaeda family." March 4, 2004. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3534195.stm

    (I'm not ready to make a post or topic out of this article; amid all the grim things in the world, there is still the idea that Osama bin Laden, "has issues with his wife, and he has issues with his kids, financial issues, you know, the kids aren't listening, the kids aren't doing this and that." Really, I ... I know it's not exactly proper, but ph@ck, that strikes me as absurdly funny.)
     
  13. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    4,089
    Strictly speaking, since you seem to be counting all the 11/09 dead, you should count some of those killed in Afghanistan and, for example, I think it was Oman they Hellfired' a car carrying some terrorist suspects. That would up the count a bit.
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,894
    I'm an American. Due process and "justice" still count for something. Well, in principle. After all, this is America ....

    Sure, "Dead or Alive," sounds good, feels good to say. But it's so 19th century.

    As Judge Tolksdorf explained, "A conflict between the security interests of the executive and the rights to defence of the accused cannot be resolved to the disadvantage of the accused."

    And when the judge knows he's guilty, and has nothing to convict someone on, and a gray zone so wide that Ramzi bin al-Shibh can fill it?

    We're willing to bomb and kill, but not support the due-process prosecution of terrorist suspects, including those accused of aiding and abetting the effort that killed so many people in New York?

    Might bring carnage. Might bring satisfaction for some Americans. But it won't bring justice; you know, that thing sworn to in that pledge of allegiance the President is so intent on forcing children to recite?

    For the world community, blowing up bad guys is a null exercise at best, and a losing proposition at worst. You're likely to inspire more bad guys than you get rid of. Justice is just too hard and slow a process for an electoral cycle in America.
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,894
    Say "WoT"? Psychic tip cancels flight

    That's right, folks. You did not read that incorrectly.

    The Associated Press is reporting that American Airlines flight 1304, from Southwest Florida International Airport, was subject to search by bomb-sniffing dogs after a purported psychic called in a tip. The flight was later canceled for labor and hour considerations. The TSA concedes that the tip was "unusual."

    No bomb was found.

    • CNN. "Psychic tip prompts bomb search on plane." March 27, 2004. See http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/03/27/psychic.plane.ap/index.html
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,894
    God loves the Ninth Circuit

    Syrian family seeking asylum wins reprieve in Ninth Circuit
    Hamoui: "I still believe in America. I still believe in justice . . . ."

    It should be noted at the outset that the Seattle Post-Intelligencer (P-I) is traditionally the more liberal of Seattle's two major newspapers. It is also the home newspaper of Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist David Horsey.

    (1) Skolnik, Sam. "INS moves to deport prominent Syrian." Seattle P-I, March 8, 2002. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/61449_ins08.shtml
    (2) Jamieson, Robert L. "Grocer himself turned dream into nightmare." Seattle P-I, March 9, 2002. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/61613_robert09.shtml
    (3) Iwasaki, John. "Syrian family's joy is muted." Seattle P-I. November 19, 2002. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/61449_ins08.shtml
    (4) Olsen, Lisa. "Local INS director is abruptly replaced." Seattle P-I. December 20, 2002. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/100855_ins20.shtml
    (5) Lange, Larry. "Speakers at Day of Remembrance warn of post-9/11 perils." Seattle P-I, February 10, 2003. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/107961_japanese10.shtml
    (6) Editorial Board. "Defiant Justice Dept. makes no apologies." Seattle P-I, June 8, 2003. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/125457_righted8.html
    (7) Editoral Board. "Justice with mercy due Syrian family." Seattle P-I, March 14, 2004. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/164568_familyed.html
    (8) McGann, Chris. "Syrian's asylum hopes lifted in appeals court." Seattle P-I, March 30, 2004. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/166921_hamoui30.html

    It goes on. In fact, if you're willing to get a free registration to the site, you can see the list of all their coverage of this story in the archive.

    The Story So Far:

    In 1992, Safouh Hamoui, a former Syrian military pilot came to the United states on a short-term tourist visa. As the P-I explains:
    In the early going, P-I columnist Robert Jamieson, Jr., wrote,
    And yet yesterday, the P-I reported on the latest development of this case. The 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals has once again aimed its critical trumpets squarely at the federal government, and also noted a shoddy legal defense:
    And you know, the rest of the links are yours to read or not. They're mostly for your information if you're so inclined. The P-I has been vocal on the Hamoui story ... pretty much the entire time.

    I'm of the opinion that this is one of the travesties of our War on Terror. These articles, of course, speak rather quite ill of the Syrian government, but hey, the US is following all manner of tyrant down the road to nowhere. I mean, the US government, especially in the PNAC age, ought to be waving this guy around like a banner--rubbing Syria's nose in it. And, yes, Clinton well could have done that nose-rubbing if he wanted to, but at least he didn't try to deport the guy in a panicked reaction to terrorism.

    Yes. Sometimes we must challenge our own the rules if it's what's best for human beings. Mr. Jamieson's article opens with a simple question: "Rules are rules, but sometimes they should be broken, right?"

    Well ... yes. Not all rules are good rules. Sometimes rules do the wrong thing. In an age when politicians live by broken rules, Yes, we can occasionally accommodate specific needs for the right reasons.

    And so finds our Ninth Circuit.

    The Hamoui family's case is one of the more powerful dramas of our War on Terror. Self-sufficient, respectably conducted in the community, family-oriented ... these are the sorts of people we should want to bring to this country. I'm all for the poor, the tired, the huddled masses, but I tend to think that when you get right down to "political reality," people with the apparent qualities of the Hamoui family who also happen to feel as if they're on the run from a regime your government doesn't like . . . .

    What? What am I missing?

    Oh, yeah.

    Knee.

    Jerk.

    On the east coast, where the sun rises, we have a statue that symbolically welcomes those who come to the United States with hopes for the future. And if they have to run all the way out here to the sunset before they can find Justice in America, then so be it.

    And this on a waxing moon . . . .
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2004
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,894
    Starbucks & Sedition

    Your War on Terror: "Party at Don's"?!
    Directions to Rummy's found at Starbucks

    Wouldn't you? Or, at least, wouldn't you pause to think about it? If you found, sitting on a table in Starbuck's, handwritten directions to some famous person's house, wouldn't you think about publishing it on the web, or distributing "Party at Don's house!" flyers?

    Well, one citizen didn't go so far as that, but rather handed over some notes discovered in a DC-area Starbucks, including a pencil-drawn map from the Pentagon to Donald Rumsfeld's house, to the Center for American Progress, another useless left-wing policy think tank.
    What's odd is that the first thing I thought was, "What will Franken say?" What? It's like T-minus six minutes to "Morning Sedition" time as I write this. Might as well give it a listen.

    But how's this administration on security? Someone's gonna be fired, that's for sure.
    ______________________

    • Kamen, Al. "Note to Eric: U Need 2B More Careful." Washington Post, March 31, 2004; page A23. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37321-2004Mar30.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2004
  18. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,061
    "The Bush administration has scuttled a plan to increase by 50 percent the number of criminal financial investigators working to disrupt the finances of Al Qaeda, Hamas and other terrorist organizations to save $12 million, a Congressional hearing was told on Tuesday." - NYT 03-31-04

    "Four Americans were attacked and their bodies subjected to barbaric maltreatment. The acts we have seen were despicable and inexcusable," he said. "They violate the tenets of all religions including Islam as one of the foundations of civilized society... Their deaths will not go unpunished." -Viceroy Bremer 04-01-03

    The present American administration prefers retaliation and escalation to intelligence. This is a leading reason why the War on Terror is having devastating results while terrorist groups are diversifying and growing.
     
  19. crazy151drinker Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,156
    PM,

    Last time I checked, the EXTREMISTS in IRAN booted out all of the Legitimate MODERATES in their govt. The EXTREMISTS fixed the Elections. So your 'fix it' theory is CRAP.

    And on another note: Has a terrorist group ever WON? NOPE. Why? Because they are nothing but an extremely small group of individuals who use fear to try to force the general public to accept their demands. If youre so concerned about the WEST's 'hatred', then maybe Muslims should stop flying planes into buildings and blowing up buses. Its bad for public relations.
    What you need PM is a revolution. But it takes a massive amount of support for that, something which your extemist views will never have.
     
  20. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    12,061
    Considering the fundamentalist revolution that occured in Iran subsequent to US "nation building" there, discounting the potential for further fundamentalist revolutions is questionable.
     
  21. crazy151drinker Registered Senior Member

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    1,156
    hype,

    The revolution in Iran was our fault. I can admit to that.
    However, as we have seen, the Extremists are no longer supported by the population. They have become what they replaced.
     
  22. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,061
    In any desperate times anywhere, locals will always blame outsiders first. Whatever becomes of Iraq, America will be blamed by most local and regional Arabs, far more than will be Saddam Hussein, the Ba'ath Party, Sectarian fighting, shadowy "insurgents", "terrorists", or any Iraqi or Arab contributors to the increasingly likely civil war ahead. Even without justification, of which there is plenty (considering the invasion was entirely elective for the US) Americans will be blamed for the death of Iraq.

    Iraqi trust for the USA is now extremely precarious, and is the most decisive factor in what is going to transpire in the near future. Without a rapid, massive and genuine transition to international peacekeepers, and without a bona-fide Iraqi government that can bind a fractious, destroyed country into one again, Iraqi trust in America will continue to erode.

    At the breaking point, the collapse is likely to be very sudden, much like the collapse of the Ba'athists, with collaborators under dire threat of retribution, and sectarian fighting on at least 3 sides. US policymakers lack the nuance and subtlety that would be the only way to encourage a viable government to form that is not perceived as a puppet regime.

    Of course Iraqis do not wish for civil war. Neither did the Lebanese. But when outside influences create a power vacuum, and fail to install a legitimate replacement, things can spin out of control very suddenly. The last fleeting expression if Iraqi nationalism could easily expend itself in a last spasm to expel Americans, and at such a juncture US firepower, however escalated, will be helpless to regain control of the situation.

    The occupation is already hopelessly muddled with many other issues including the Arab-Israeli conflict, the "War on Terror", Ahmed Chalabi (and other mistrusted exile leaders), and the tenuous shift of balance between Sunni, Shia, and Kurds, and Chaldeans. Considering these divisive factors along with gathering disillusion with US occupiers, the chances for any lasting government created by any process under US occupation is, tragically, very remote. The PNAC dream of Arab receptivity to American-sponsored self-government has already run aground.

    Because the US will increasingly receive the blame, it is becoming politically impossible for the US to forge a viable Iraq from a unilateralist, interventionist base. The present coalition is widely perceived as a meaningless fig-leaf. Unless elections somehow bring a sea-change in Iraqi security, the resulting government will also lack legitimacy. The only sure chance for averting an increasingly likely cataclysm is for the peacekeeping/occupation/transition to be de-Americanized as rapidly as possible. Presently, there is no evidence of a concrete plan to do this, which will be another heavy burden of blame for American leaders who commited forces while lacking fundamental understanding of the implications.

    Where the blame for all this agony will fall at every downturn is the single most pivotal issue in Iraq's future, and the die is already cast.
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,894
    Sierra Club - "The Cost of Doing Business"
    US firm accused of giving aid to terrorists

    A former project manager for Echo Bay Mines has stated, and claims to have documentation to demonstrate, that his company paid as much as US$1.7 million to Filipino "terrorists," including some with connections to Abu Sayyaf and al Qaeda.

    Allan Laird claims to have approached the Department of Homeland Security, but to on avail. According to Sierra magazine, two former executives of the now-defunct Denver, Colorado company have confirmed that Laird did send "alarming updates and queries from the Philippines," and was trying to follow a money trail . . . .

    Oh, hell ... just do the reading. One note is that Echo Bay was purchased by Kinross Gold Corporation, of Canada, in 2003. Kinross officials say they had no knowledge of the payments.


    Notes:

    • Associated Press. "Ex=worker says mine gave aid to terrorists." April 17, 2004. See http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2511366
    • Berlin Snell, Marilyn. "The Cost of Doing Business." Sierra Magazine, March/April, 2004. See http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200405/terrorism/

    See Also:

    • Kinross Gold Corporation. See http://www.kinross.com/
     

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