Your War on Terror: The Terrorists Are Winning

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. PieAreSquared Woo is resistant to reason Registered Senior Member

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    me thinks the terrorist are smart enough not to use airplanes again
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Me, I'd look into who was selling those million dollars worth of security equipment to the government. Nothing motivates people like a profit margin.

    When the "big urgent question" is "Why isn’t whole-body-scanning technology that can detect explosives in wider use?" well I want to know who is making them.

    I wonder how many people know that RapidScan is owned by Michael Chertoff
     
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  5. PieAreSquared Woo is resistant to reason Registered Senior Member

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    I'm surprised that RapdScan isn't owned by Cheney
     
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps they are, but mainly by the help of their ideas and now politicians with similar ideas. You can't fight ideas you don't like with bombs - that just strengthens them with results like the following:

    "... Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr*, an opponent of U.S. foreign policy, called on Iraq’s newly formed government to force “occupiers” to leave the country.

    “The line of Iraqi resistance will not go away from Iraq,” al-Sadr told thousands of supporters in Najaf, about 100 miles south of Baghdad. “The Iraqi government should seek to get the occupiers out of the country by all means it sees appropriate.” ..." {I assume than means he will be rebuilding Sadr's army of 100s of armed fighters again. Iran will see that he does not lack weapons.}

    From: http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aOL.ZEm.fBB4&pos=9

    America has some great ideas - too bad it prefers to fight with bombs. Did you know that the US army has more men (and ladies) in its marching bands that the State Department has in foreign service! Perhaps the US should switch State Department and Army budgets and see if the State department can win some "hearts and minds" that support the US?

    I still think, as stated long ago, that the long term effect of the Iraq wars may be that Iran annexes southern Iraq and Kurdistan is born with a lot of problem for Turkey. Where is Saddam, when we need him?

    -----------
    * Al-Sadr returned to Iraq on Jan. 5 after an absence of almost four years.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2011
  8. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    7,832
    Instead of bombs, they should blast them with some Sousa. . .
    It just might work, you know. Maybe if they handed out free gatorades and Happy Meals?
     
  9. Watcher Just another old creaker Registered Senior Member

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    Why did anyone ever expect to win a war over terror, whatever that means? I sure didn't. Humans are easily terrorized, we are pathetic little savages when you get right down to it.

    With the weapons of mass destruction that will soon be available (if not already available) to any extremist whackjob that wants them, it is simply a matter of time before the current power structure is toppled.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Snacky Cakes?

    Customs & Border Patrol Protects Americans From Bad Music

    Well, I know the idea of "bad music" is a matter of taste, but it just sounds better that way. I don't have anything against the Australian band Voltera; they just don't move me, baby.

    Whatever.

    But, apparently, the band is such a threat to civil society that the bottom-shelf Marilyn Manson knockoffs from Down Under have been refused entry to the United States of America:

    VOLTERA REGRET TO ANNOUNCE THAT "THE BIRTH OF THE END OF THE WORLD" USA TOUR HAS BEEN CANCELLED!Voltera had their Visa status revoked at the US/CAN border due to.. and I quote the CBP... "concerns over contents of performance relating to Title 8 of the Patriot Act" because we are aliens."Definition encompasses activities that are dangerous to human life, that are a violation of criminal laws of the US or of any state and are intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population......" etc.Basically, in the land of the free, you have freedom of speech as long as you are American.After lengthy interviews, fingerprinting, etc we had a choice of waiving our visa rights and remaining in Canada or deportation.

    Okay, okay, I know I'm being hard on a band that I haven't listened to, but it's to make a point.

    What it comes down to is that CBP is protecting Americans from "bad" music.

    Thus, a brief note to my international neighbors:

    Look, I ... I have no idea what the hell is going on with that. I'll badmouth CBP any day, thanks to the prigs at YVR (that would be Hill and Busto, to be exact). But, wow. I mean, maybe I've got it all wrong. Maybe Voltera is the most evil band in the history of the world. But in a nation that has survived David Lee Roth, Gwar, Marilyn Manson, and Man or Astro-Man°, I'm hard-pressed to figure out what this troupe of emo-schock wanna-bes have hidden in their trousers that CBP could find so worrisome.

    So, yeah. If someone knows what's so bad about these guys—and enough knocking on the fact that they suck—that we can't let them into the country, please let me know.

    But, otherwise, I'm really not sure what to tell you.​

    I'm just sayin' ....
    ____________________

    Notes:

    ° Man or Astro-Man — Yes, really. I mean, how often can you pay five or ten bucks at the door, or whatever it was, and be showered by Li'l Debbie, or see Coco the Electronic Monkey Wizard set his head on fire in the middle of the performance?
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    How to Lose a War

    How to Lose a War

    Saeed Shah and Peter Beaumont, reporting for The Guardian, bring us the story of Noor Behram, a Pakistani photographer who has made a mission of covering drone strikes in Waziristan.

    Sometimes arriving on the scene just minutes after the explosion, he first has to put his camera aside and start digging through the debris to see if there are any survivors. It's dangerous, unpleasant work. The drones frequently hit the same place again, a few minutes after the first strike, so looking for the injured is risky. There are other dangers too: militants and locals are suspicious of anyone with a camera. After all, it is a local network of spies working for the CIA that are directing the drone strikes.

    But Noor Behram says his painstaking work has uncovered an important – and unreported – truth about the US drone campaign in Pakistan's tribal region: that far more civilians are being injured or dying than the Americans and Pakistanis admit. The world's media quickly reports on how many militants were killed in each strike. But reporters don't go to the spot, relying on unnamed Pakistani intelligence officials. Noor Behram believes you have to go to the spot to figure out whether those killed were really extremists or ordinary people living in Waziristan. And he's in no doubt.

    "For every 10 to 15 people killed, maybe they get one militant," he said. "I don't go to count how many Taliban are killed. I go to count how many children, women, innocent people, are killed."

    Behram explains that the drone strikes have a powerful effect on nearby people, especially the youth:

    "There are just pieces of flesh lying around after a strike. You can't find bodies. So the locals pick up the flesh and curse America. They say that America is killing us inside our own country, inside our own homes, and only because we are Muslims.

    "The youth in the area surrounding a strike gets crazed. Hatred builds up inside those who have seen a drone attack. The Americans think it is working, but the damage they're doing is far greater."

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    Sometimes we need to ask the obvious questions

    Perhaps Greenwald's expression of the question rubs the point in a little. But it is a fair question, because it's not about hating us for our freedoms.

    What can we expect people to feel?

    The photographs make for difficult viewing and leave no doubt about the destructive power of the Hellfire missiles unleashed: a boy with the top of his head missing, a severed hand, flattened houses, the parents of children killed in a strike. The chassis is all that remains of a car in one photo, another shows the funeral of a seven-year-old child. There are pictures, too, of the cheap rubber flip-flops worn by children and adults, which often survive: signs that life once existed there. A 10-year-old boy's body, prepared for burial, shows lipstick on him and flowers in his hair – a mother's last loving touch.

    Or, perhaps more directly, what would any of us tell a fifteen year-old boy who, during Ramadan, lost a wheelchair-bound uncle and two cousins to a drone strike, as well as both legs and one eye? And then when he hears that the official report says three Taliban "commanders" were killed?

    What do we expect?
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Shah, Saeed and Peter Beaumont. "US drone strikes in Pakistan claiming many civilian victims, says campaigner". The Guardian. July 17, 2011. Guardian.co.uk. July 17, 2011. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/17/us-drone-strikes-pakistan-waziristan
     
  12. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Well, it's not just the "bad" music--and musicians--"they" are protecting us from; also, it seems to work both ways. I won't bother citing the proper name for Canada's Customs & Border Patrol Agency, nor their own little "Patriot Act," because it doesn't really matter: Canada is no longer entitled to not being considered simply the 51st state. And they'll no longer be collecting a few bucks in GST and PST for minor purchases by me, and neither will their venues ever have the opportunity to pay me "illegally" again. I've had so many "troubles" with their customs folk over the past three years, that I have no intention of bothering with that state anymore.

    Conversely, and to your point, Godspeed! You Black Emperor were stopped in Texas (IIRC) on the suspicion of being "terrorists" several years back. This was before they made a chunk of money from that 28 Days Later flick, so they had a crappier van. And on that note, funny how those fuckers in massive RVs getting 3 miles to the gallon (1 k to the litre)--traveling either direction--never seem to get hassled.


    Edit: Also, I would like to think that the "terrorists" who I support are in fact winning, but the F.B.I. seem to be making it awful hard on, uh, them. They (the F.B.I., the State Department, Goldman Sachs) could at least feign sincerity by at least making an effort to do something about supremacist groups, ant-abortionists, et al who are actually violent and kill people and shits--like, you know, maybe actually even consider them to be "terrorist" organizations. But then... well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2011
  13. sifreak21 Valued Senior Member

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    1,671
    couldnt agree more on the news a few months or years back there was a girl on the suspect terrorist list she was 4 years old.. we have and will always lose the fucking idiotic war on terror because we are reactive not pro active
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Godspeed You! CBP Morons

    I may be reading you wrongly, but I did want to clarify that U.S. CBP operates a station at Vancouver International Airport, screening folks who intend to fly from there into the United States. You have to pass through the station before getting onto any flight into the U.S. And the U.S. CBP officers at YVR are complete morons.

    Ah, I probably was reading you wrongly. Oh, well. I still enjoy telling that outrageous story.

    But, indeed, I recall the GY!BE incident. Or, at least, the tales of that one.

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    Which one of us is the terrorist? Godspeed You! Black Emperor is slated to play the UK this week and next.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Meikle, Ash. "Godspeed You! Black Emperor announce UK tour". Shout4Music. April 13, 2011. Shout4Music.com. July 18, 2011. http://www.shout4music.com/news/godspeed-you-black-emperor-announce-uk-tour/
     
  15. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Please spare us this hand-wringing BS. If they wanted to fight a war against the US, this is exactly how they would do it, assuming they could get the same technology. The drone strikes have been wildly successful in defeating Al Quida's leadership. Do you really believe in some household there is one militant, and the rest peace-loving innocents? Do you really believe that these fundamentalist Muslims would not hate America if we didn't bomb them? At least now they both hate and fear us, and that's the way I like it.
     
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    But that's not whole truth of it because yes I agree that there isn't just one militant and the rest are peace loving but they are not all fundamentalist, its an insurgency that pulls from mainstream Afghan society and is spurred by what is perceived to be an occupation. US intelligence says only 10% are hardcore ideologues:


    WASHINGTON - Nearly all of the insurgents battling US and NATO troops in Afghanistan are not religiously motivated Taliban and Al Qaeda warriors, but a new generation of tribal fighters vying for control of territory, mineral wealth, and smuggling routes, according to summaries of new US intelligence reports.

    Some of the major insurgent groups, including one responsible for a spate of recent American casualties, actually opposed the Taliban’s harsh Islamic government in Afghanistan during the 1990s, according to the reports, described by US officials under the condition they not be identified.

    “Ninety percent is a tribal, localized insurgency,’’ said one US intelligence official in Washington who helped draft the assessments. “Ten percent are hardcore ideologues fighting for the Taliban.’’

    US commanders and politicians often loosely refer to the enemy as the Taliban or Al Qaeda, giving rise to the image of holy warriors seeking to spread a fundamentalist form of Islam. But the mostly ethnic Pashtun fighters are often deeply connected by family and social ties to the valleys and mountains where they are fighting, and they see themselves as opposing the United States because it is an occupying power, the officials and analysts said.

    http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...y_reports_say/
     
  17. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    No, they oppose the US because we are a secular power. The proof of this is that they did not for the most part oppose the Taliban even though while the Taliban were a foreign occupying power, they are Muslims. Those 90% will accede to the 10% and their fundamentalist goals, because that's how it works. Moderates give cover for the most fanatical, which is just to say those who really believe what they read.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2011
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    The Dogs of War are Men of Hate

    Please spare us the dumb-assed strawmen.

    There's no hand-wringing about the fact that the U.S. lost the War on Terror. Well, at least on my part. Maybe for you.

    So you're saying that "they" are just as stupid as "us". Okay. After all, "they" are just as human as "us".

    Wildly successful? Okay, I suppose if we go with the conventional wisdom from 2001-02 about how powerful and cohesive and dangerous Al Qaeda was. But since 9/11, they've been sending farm leaguers after targets in the U.S. You know, like the guy who couldn't light a match in order to blow up his shoes? Or the moron who burned his balls off?

    Certes, we've had some success. But I would take issue with "wild" success.

    Do you really believe there is a militant in the house at all just because the American government says so? You know, the same people who say we don't torture?

    Even when the drones hit the right compound, the force of the blast is such that neighbours' houses, often made of baked mud, are also demolished, crushing those inside, said Noor Behram. One of the photographs shows a tangle of debris he said were the remains of five houses blitzed together.

    (Shah and Beaumont)

    Let me guess, we had unimpeachable intelligence confirming that there was at least one militant hiding in each of those houses?

    Or, as Jane Mayer wrote in 2009:

    Still, the recent campaign to kill Baitullah Mehsud offers a sobering case study of the hazards of robotic warfare. It appears to have taken sixteen missile strikes, and fourteen months, before the C.I.A. succeeded in killing him. During this hunt, between two hundred and seven and three hundred and twenty-one additional people were killed, depending on which news accounts you rely upon.

    By your logic, we shouldn't worry, because those 207-321 additional people were all terrorists.

    Right?

    You don't win a war by creating more enemies than you destroy. Well, unless your whole purpose is perpetual attrition. In that case, I would agree with you that the drone strikes are wildly successful.

    It would take a little more than simply not bombing them. But that's not your worry. Perpetual warfare is apparently the way you like it.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Shah, Saeed and Peter Beaumont. "US drone strikes in Pakistan claiming many civilian victims, says campaigner". The Guardian. July 18, 2011. Guardian.co.uk. July 17, 2011. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/17/us-drone-strikes-pakistan-waziristan

    Mayer, Jane. "The Predator War". The New Yorker. October 26, 2009. NewYorker.com. July 18, 2011. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/10/26/091026fa_fact_mayer
     
  19. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    I think you read me correctly. I was referring more to experiences at land crossings; interestingly, I've never had any problems in Europe or elsewhere of this nature, in spite of the fact that I am plainly "visiting" certain countries to work, and without the proper permits. (It's pretty obvious what you're doing there when you've got hundreds of copies of the sames cds and records, and a load of equipment.)

    Of course, there's also that weird aspect in airports of going through customs before you've even entered the freakin' country. So far as I know, they don't do it that way anyplace else in the world.

    Just to clear up any potential confusion on this part, I did in no way intend to suggest that GYBE were "bad" by any stretch--I'm not entirely clear as to what I meant by "to your point." They're awesome and nice folks. Their engineer was supposed to have recorded an album for my previous band, until I decided that I could no longer work with human beings and went out into the desert in a VW Westfalia and did everything on my own--like Vincent Gallo!

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  20. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    You win wars with violence. That's what war is. You teach people that violence against the USA will be countered with violence until there is no one left to hurt us. We didn't start this war, and it's bullshit to say we cause terrorism by fighting terrorism. Bin Laden didn't form his views because the US did anything to him personally. If our actions create terrorists, then we will kill those terrorists too. I have heard no viable alternative from the peacenik crowd other than to leave those poor terrorists alone, which is stupid and frankly cowardly. Al Quida has apparently lost their ability to project terror into the American mainland. They cannot find leadership because we kill their leaders. They are marginalized and ineffective, which proves that we are doing something right. These people chose perpetual warfare, not us, but we can play that game too. Get a grip, this is a generational conflict, and it will require some patience and determination on our part to get the upper hand. We are winning the war on terror. For now.

    If the neighbors' house gets blown up because their neighbors were terrorists, I would do my best to kill all the terrorists myself until my village was no longer considered a threat. It's not the policeman that's to blame for the damage caused in arresting a wanted murderer, it's the murderer.

    Surviving militants are forced to operate far more cautiously, which diverts their energy from planning new attacks. And there is evidence that the drone strikes, which depend on local informants for targeting information, have caused debilitating suspicion and discord within the ranks. Four Europeans who were captured last December after trying to join Al Qaeda in Pakistan described a life of constant fear and distrust among the militants, whose obsession with drone strikes had led them to communicate only with elaborate secrecy and to leave their squalid hideouts only at night. As the Times has reported, militants have been so unnerved by the drone program that they have released a video showing the execution of accused informants. Pakistanis have also been gripped by rumors that paid C.I.A. informants have been planting tiny silicon-chip homing devices for the drones in the tribal areas...


    That's great, they are getting terrorized for a change.

    Still fewer than would die if the Taliban had an entire nation under their control. They would probably murder a couple hundred people a week just for dancing, wearing lipstick, or allowing themselves to be raped.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    GY!BE is pretty damn awesome

    They're a pretty awesome band.
     
  22. Hesperado Don't immanentize the eschaton Registered Senior Member

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    “Meet Mikey Hicks,” said Najlah Feanny Hicks, introducing her 8-year-old son, a New Jersey Cub Scout ...


    Najlah...!!!??? I wouldn't necessarily search her kid, but I certainly would give her extra scrutiny with a name like that -- evidently the Muslim wife of a brainless American husband (who may well have in the meantime converted to Islam, if he hadn't before marrying her).
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Welcome to Our Humble Bedlam

    I would note that such subtlety is lost on this crowd. Don't spend too much effort trying to posture yourself as a moron; that's one thing people here will take you at your word for.

    Welcome to our humble bedlam.
     

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