You Will Speak English at Geno's in Philadelphia

You know what I'm gonna do? You're putting words into my mouth, and I'm not going to take it anymore. You accuse me of being racist with no basis, I'll take that as ad hom and a sign that you have nothing better to say.

 

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No basis? That's credible, coming from ... well, you.

And I'll take that as a sign that you can't come up with a better argument.

Just keep a certain point in mind:

Yet you support the racists. That's the sad thing about someone in your position, Whitewolf. You want to say, "I'm not a racist, I just want to use their rhetoric." (#1802147/77)​

 

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I do intend to return to your post. I can only devote so much time in a day to a long post.

You really are putting words into my mouth, right there. A normal racist would simply admit being a racist, don't you think? Yet you want to make this a racist issue, because that's the only thread on which your argument hangs. It's insulting to me. With my next post and on, I will simply omit your points on racism.

 

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Ah yes, I do love that about them, its what makes me fall instantly in love with a particular type of Englishman.

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A normal racist?

What an interesting proposition.

To the other, it is not uncommon to hear someone say, "I'm not a racist, but ...."

Or, "I don't hate women, but ...."

Or, "I don't hate gays, but ...."

And then they go on to spew some ridiculous point that explains so clearly why they want to disclaim themselves. I find it striking how many people who "aren't racists" tend to speak and behave as if they were.

Here, let's consider yet again a point I've already made a couple times—

You want to say, "I'm not a racist, I just want to use their rhetoric."​

— and contrast it with that absolutely amazing thing you wrote about jazz:

You argued that not everyone likes the same type of music. It's not as black-and-white as you think. You'd think that Jazz is only for white enthusiasts and blacks know nothing besides Rap; but I've been to Jazz and Swing concerts and the audiences were mostly black young people who softly sang, tapped, and clapped along to the music.​

Really, I'm still not sure what to say to that. I mean, part of it is a question of where to start. And then there's the question of why I should bother.

The word "hopeless" comes to mind. As does a colloquial word for bovine excrement.

I mean, maybe in your corner of the Universe, this is a significant point. Important. Perhaps it addresses something that the people around you just don't seem to understand. But where I'm from, you might as well have a neon phallus bolted to your forehead. I applaud you for recognizing that not all young black people listen to rap, but that is, seriously, one of the funniest things I've read in the last few years, especially when I stop to think that it comes from someone using racist arguments to make a dubious point while reiterating that he is not racist.

I'm pretty sure that if I tried, I could find something out of Bush or Cheney's mouths in recent times, but I have to reach back something like a decade, to the time a friend, while complaining about all the Mexicans at her work (she was upset because they were acting like everyone else), responded to my point that not all of the Hispanics were Mexicans by saying, "Oh, yeah. I know. We have Cuban Mexicans, too."

But she's not racist, either. She just uses the word "Mexican" as an epithet. You know, like any person who isn't racist°.
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Notes:

° isn't racist — You know, almost everyone carries a racist sensibility; one of the key differences is whether people acknowledge, deny, or openly embrace those aspects of themselves. Those who celebrate their racism I find distasteful. Those who deny it I find dishonest. Those who acknowledge it and try to figure out how to solve that personal conundrum have my sympathies. However, I have little sympathy for those who acknowledge their racism in order to embrace that aspect while denying that they are racist. In other words, sir, calm down, please, and consider the notion that, if you're (effectively) not a racist, you should be able to build an argument without relying on racist rhetoric. Something about the word lazy comes to mind, but that couldn't possibly be it. After all, you can only devote so much time to communicating clearly. I understand.

 

If only you were a guy and Oscar Wilde were alive today......

 

Not at all.

 

The statistical burden is still on you, since you did not provide statistics that would be relevant to the conversation.

For my part:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7328967.stm And the outrageous part is not their food, or their music, or the mere presence of Hispanics; those have been incorporated into our culture. These people dragged their poverty and their gangs with them. Immigrants did organise gangs before, but those gangs were gathered to protect interests of their kind, not the other way around. And we are trying to diminish crime in our country. Do I want these people "integrated" and given legal documents? No. Do you?

Such complexities are for older children. For younger children, 1st grade-2nd grade, it's very hard to understand why it's okay to do something at one point and not at another if the two situations look very similar. In a classroom of Hispanic students with a Hispanic teacher, it'll be even harder to explain to them that they learn English by speaking it (wasn't that one of your arguments?).

If I don't know Chinese, I can't speak to Chinese people in their native tongue and I can't work in China. In order to work in China, I have to know the language pretty well. And I don't have anyone complain on my behalf about the Chinese excluding my race from their society.

So, as we try to stop our companies from using sweatshops, as we set the minimum wage, you're trying to say that our economy depends on below minimum wage workers and sweatshops? That's wonderful.

The ones that are already here have driven down the wages for certain jobs and made it so that working those jobs is impossible to make a living. I would much prefer to see a welfare fatso quit watching tv and go work at a construction site or take out the garbage, but I can't demand that because those jobs don't provide a living. Those employers would rather hire someone who'll work for 5$ an hour, and they can do it if the person doesn't have legal documents. That's how they drag their poverty with them. That's what all immigrants do, but if they come here legally employers can't hire them for less than minimum wage.

I'm glad you think so well of people, you don't expect them to cheat the system. And yes, renewing a visa has become a complicated process that takes a long time, so it really is possible to overstay without intention while merely standing in line to the office. But a vast percentage overstay because they simply want to stay here and use the visa merely as a way for getting in permanently. How do I know? I live in a community of immigrants, I know how this is done. Yes, those cases ought to be reviewed and a good percentage needs to be deported back to where they came from. And that's not only Hispanics.

He made a very racist statement that happens to be inaccurate. And that's not only because he used the "n" word. And he's not even a WASP, and that part is appalling because we tend to think that racism is limited to white people. Do I want more racists to get "integrated" into our society and given legal papers? Do you?

We're not talking about accents.

If you call traditional actions rituals, then ye, ritualism.

Are you fucking serious? Why is that?

Many groups celebrate more than one new year. Yea, our rugged individualism allows for that.

Yea, the music was great and the atmosphere was awesome. It took place in an auditorium where classical music concerts are conducted, so I thought the atmosphere would be the same as with classical music; so I was pleasantly surprised.

Music is accessible to everyone and yes, classical, jazz, blues, rock, rap -- that's all American history and, therefore, American culture; even though some people find jazz unacceptable. Jazz got started here and became acceptable because of developments in classical music; jazz evolved into blues, and from blues came rock 'n roll; then came rap, our pop culture, everything else. It is popular to think that the rebellious American youth started with rock and the 60s, but it really started with jazz age. Without the 60s and Beatles mania, we probably wouldn't have so many Vegetarians in America (yes, even though Beatles are from Britain). The developments in music affect everyone even though not everyone likes all kinds of music. Is it defining for American culture? Jazz, blues, rock, rap, and pop started here. If you want to call those innovations cliche, that's fine. Yes, our rugged individualism allows for subcultures to exist; but those are subcultures that are within one big culture. Preferring rock to rap, or baseball to football, or organic apple to turkey does not make one un-American.

American culture also includes jeans and fast food. It also includes obsession with sex and sexism. And it also includes guilt trips, for which I can find no other source than Christianity. It also includes the American Dream, the dream to acquire land and have a family house. And, yea, American English language.

It is un-American to expect service in Spanish everywhere as a given. Nobody approaches me and speaks to me in Chinese in China Town, or Italian in Little Italy; they don't expect me to know those languages because I don't look like I would and we're in America, but they do expect me to know English.

What rules of the game are being changed? Explain exactly what is being changed and how it's relevant to your argument.

...to someone who thought that black Americans don't speak English. And that person is pointing his finger at me. Entertain me: to what language does jive talk belong?

 

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Here's a quick lesson for you, Whitewolf: Statistics that disagree with your argument can still be relevant to the discussion.

Oooh. La Eme.

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Their poverty. Their gangs. Competing in an American market. Eme is our sin. Aryan Brotherhood will even work with them. Let me guess, the white supremacists learned some lessons from the Mexicans?

You're trying to blame the gang problem in the U.S. on illegal immigrants?

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Blame it on the Mexicans, right?​

Let me get this straight. You would want your child held back from all other experiences until they learned a certain language proficiently?

You realize you're pushing absolutes at this point?

So go to China and complain.

See, one of the things that happens, at least when you're born in this country, is that much of your early school years include what we now, in our adult years, often call "jingoistic bullshit". The reason I mention this is because from a very early age, Americans are taught that they are better than people in other countries. One of the problems this brings, especially if we start to believe any part of it, is that we can no longer justify ourselves by pointing to people in other countries.

I don't give a frak about China, Whitewolf. We're supposed to conduct ourselves better—smarter and more progressively—than the Chinese.

Child labor in Nepal, sweatshops in Los Angeles ... one way or another, our American comfort depends on a large and growing poverty class around the world.

Then take it up with the people who employ them.

Also: take it up with the U.S. government. Why is it so important that we maintain such a gap? Think of it: In Mexico, or Laos, or how many places in Africa? How many places around the world are such that "below the minimum wage" in the U.S. is an attractive offer? Why is it this way? Who the hell benefits, in the end?

How much are you willing to pay for an apple? A loaf of bread? How about a pair of underwear?

Don't take me wrongly here: I'm one of those who thinks our society needs to have such discussions. I'm also thought of as anti-American for believing that. So, yeah. Wonderful. Welcome to freakin' America, Whitewolf. This is what we've made. And you would think, wouldn't you, that since we went to the trouble of throwing the Mexicans out once before, they would have gotten the hint. Right?

Except people still offered them jobs.

That ... makes sense.

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Okay, you know, here's the thing: the naturalization process is complicated, and takes a long time. That's part of the reason people are willing to come here illegally instead of legally.

And all that paragraph of yours is well and fine. It's an interesting change of direction, I admit. But because of that I'm not sure how you intend it to fit into the discussion.

Yeah. You're right. He was inaccurate. The people who picked up the garbage at the insurance company I worked for were Laotian. In other words, neither black nor Latino.

But then again, I never did go back and dig up the magazine. So going by the citation you offered, I just don't see the horrible racist offense you see. What? "You're not going to take out the garbage. That is for the Latino, or the black person"?

Okay, if you insist. He did mention skin color and ethnic origin.

What? What the hell are you on about?

Okay, okay ... that was so bizarre I had to look back to make sure I wasn't confusing this with another discussion.

Whitewolf: When you met the couple that spoke British English, you knew they were not American right away because language is a very defining part of culture.

Tiassa: Well, there are always other cues. They very well could have been American. They're not necessarily going to ditch their accents in the time it takes to naturalize.

Whitewolf: We're not talking about accents.​

Okay. Neither are the English necessarily going to ditch their dialects straight up, either. Strange thing I noticed around Seattle: get an Englishman into a roomful of Seattleites, and we all start using "lift" as a noun. So ... obviously, I just don't get your point.

Okay. I don't necessarily object.

Because you'll write the wrong date on your checks and deposit slips?

Yes. But being "out of sync with everyone else" is often a good thing.

Singing along to Shostakovich just isn't quite the same thing, you know?

Okay, okay, think of it this way. Ever hear of Andre Rieu? He seems pretty good at what he does, but I only ever see him on PBS, during pledge drives, when they simply won't stop playing his concerts. Now, one thing that's really impressive about, say, a Pearl Jam show, is when twenty thousand people try to sing "Better Man". Being in a room with fifteen hundred Floater fans who all, simultaneously, admit that they know the words to an Elton John song ("Rocket Man") is pretty cool, too. Standing and saluting and singing the "global anthem" with Roger Waters ("The Perfect Sense"), it's all great. But if you've seen an Andre Rieu performance, you've probably heard what it's like when twenty thousand people try to sing "Habanera".

Look, it's just that at this point, it sounds like a comedy routine. Um ... like, for instance, I don't know what kind of black people you're familiar with, but black people of any age singing, tapping, or clapping along to music just ... well, it's just not so unusual in my corner of the Universe. It's not at all surprising.

Unacceptable? Like ... how?

I mean, once upon a time in America, yeah. But maybe us elitist west-coast liberal effetes are just too far removed from the rest of you. I haven't heard someone make the "unacceptable" argument about jazz outside of a cheap stereotype in a bad novel in .... You know, I'm not sure I ever heard it. Maybe ... maybe from my father once upon a time. But (A) I doubt it, and (B) he's gotten better at expressing himself over the years, and there used to be a time when whatever he didn't like was bad music.

But that phrase, "some people find jazz unacceptable", is mostly a literary device to me.

Nothing ever begins. What becomes jazz starts before then and across the seas. Or, rather, it all depends on which arbitrary point you choose to start.

Well, for some of us, American culture also includes a lot of people who don't speak English very well. In fact, the only reason we have to exclude them from American culture is because a bunch of people like you decided we should.

"Un-American". Yeah, you know, everything is un-American these days. "Un-American" is such a buzzword that it's meaningless.

Okay, right now, free speech is un-American. In 2004, during the presidential campaign, a bunch of former Vietnam vets, specifically one named Galanti, declared truth un-American. Frankly, I find the fascists and warmongers of the Bush era to be un-American. The word covers a lot.

Now, I do not think it proper to expect people to serve you in Spanish wherever you go. Nor do I think it proper to expect people to serve you in Italian, Russian, German, Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Portuguese, or any other foreign language wherever you go. These days, it's not proper to expect people to serve me in halfway-literate English wherever I go.

But it's all a far cry from forbidding service in those languages. There is a difference between not being able to expect a teacher to speak Spanish in a classroom and using the law to prohibit one who is capable of doing so from utilizing that skill.

Interesting. For some reason, I'm expected to know a bunch of languages. A few Asian languages (we all look alike to white people), Spanish (apparently we all look alike to white people), a few indigenous American tribal languages (believe it or not, a drunken injun joke goes here), and, in one case, Romany.

I don't think I've ever been expected to know Italian. Or French, German, or Norwegian.

Well, the one about "no black people in baseball" went out the window a while ago. And after that they pretty much couldn't keep anyone out just for their ethnicity.

That's probably a dissertation in and of itself. The relevant portion is really quite simple: Baseball adjusts to its new blood. If you can think back far enough, remember that the original point about baseball had to do with adapting to prevailing customs, and in the American pastime, the prevailing customs do a hell of a lot of adapting. (Hint: The return of black people to MLB changed an identifying custom instead of adapting to it.)

So ... um ... Click me.