Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Michael, Jul 8, 2009.
It's a farce.
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"The" West. Kind of funny. A couple of points; firstly, social norms are changing, we have an African American as our President (as an example). My parents were both teenagers when they had me, I think it was the norm then (18 and 19). While yes religion is one way to change and/or control behavior (just look at yourself as an example - or SAM), so is education. Certain taboos on adult sex may change - as a matter of fact, they seem to be. Homosexuality can be measured with fMRI, it's a normal biological process - another norm that has changed. Etc... As for Atheism, Chinese tend towards Atheism yet The State has instilled "conservative" morality. So there is absolutely no need for religion to have conservative socitiey (if that's important to you). I thin North Korea is very conservative - also very poor. Japan is VERY Asian. Most would by your standards be considered immoral. Thailand is VERY Asian and VERY religious - again, by your standards many (or most) are immoral.
I read in the Economist that Pakistan is projected to have a population of 550 million by 2050. A population explosion that has never occurred in a human society, not even in China. As Pakistan can not support such a truly massive population, well most social scientists think it's the ideal country to study and see just exactly what happens when a country has such a massive number of people crammed into a tiny space without the resources to support that many people. In experiments on mice and rats, population explosions always end with the rodents eating one another. Maybe a new religion will pop up? Or maybe Muslims will say cannibalism is Islamic? Who knows? But, it will be interesting - espeacially as some people here say having 20 children/women is the sign of a strong and vibrant culture. (unlike say Japan which will even out at 80 million, down from 110 - they are in a "decline" - poor bastards.)
Anyway, many Muslims think Mohammad having sex with a 9 year old is immoral, that's the reason why Islamic Apologists like to say she was anywhere from 25 to at the minimum maybe 12. That's not really my point, my point is he (even as a literary creation) wasn't a pedo.
What do you call a man who physically harms a 9 yo girl for his sexual pleasure???
1-it wasn't physical harm.
2-she wasn't 9 yo old.
3-she wasn't a girl.
4-it wasn't for sexual pleasure.
I'm responding to the OP & further from the author of the OP, not whatever you've been taught happened.
The OP proposed that due to time, place, etc marrying a 9 yo girl isn't the horrible thing it is to us today.
So I have to believe in God to have morals?
I feel chastity is a religious construct for the most part although there are good non-religious reasons for not having sex with anyone who crosses your path. Concepts of modesty change over time. 50 years ago an American woman wouldn't go out the door without a girdle and stockings (and probably a hat and gloves). Now we can wear tank tops in the summer and leave our legs bare without being "immodest". My concept of honor means that I don't lie, don't steal, and do my best to be a positive force in every life I come into contact with. Being human, it sometimes comes down to me not being a negative force in anyone's life. Religion does not necessarily create morality within a society. Jewish, Christian and Muslim history is filled with murder, rape, pillage, slavery, torture, conquest, involuntary (religious) conversion and obtaining as much (power, wealth, pretty women) as possible without care to who had to suffer for it.
Are you saying that theocratic countries of today don't have moral issues? Perhaps they don't have the divorce rate or the illegitimate birth rates that the US has but don't try to suggest that there aren't moral issues to be overcome.
I truly don't see your argument. Agreed on your main purpose of marriage - where I lose you is that rational or scientific thought is the gateway to immorality. I feel the exact opposite is true - rational and scientific thought help us lead better lives. When we can think about things in a rational manner with certain evidence as to what is a good idea or not then we can make better decisions. The whole of the US is not what one sees on Judge Judy. In my opinion, the problems that you write about stem directly from our appalling education system and our growing levels of poverty. Depression and hopelessness lead to many things - emotional scarring, drugs, inability to relate to other people in an appropriate way, inability to do anything functional or forward looking in your life...and these things lead to drama, bad decisions, allowing one's self to be used and then lashing out, making more bad decisions. The problem is not that people haven't got God in their lives, the problem is that they are so scarred and so inept at taking any positive steps that our families are falling apart.
I've read a bit of the Koran. I've read a lot about Islamic society and culture (my interests are sociology, cultural anthropology, history). No "trapping, using and then throwing away...(of loose women)"? Uhm, temporary marriages? What is the explanation for that? And what kind of life do these girls have afterwards when their virginity has been taken and no one will marry them? I believe that the Koran allows the use of female slaves for sex. Is this not immoral? A woman without anyone to look to her best interests, without any say in the matter can be used, sexually, with no thought to her physical or emotional well-being and that is not immoral? And I am talking about what happens today, in 2009, when slavery is rampant all over the globe and I can't help but think there are some female slaves somewhere in a Islamic Theocracy being used for "moral" sex.
To end, I don't think that anyone was saying that broken families and loose living are the epitome of civilization and maybe science and rational has not got everything figured out but in my mind, religion hasn't done any better.
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