WWII Samuri Sub Carries/Launches Planes

Discussion in 'History' started by Orleander, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    I have never heard of these subs. Was the technology kept secret, or just their location?

    ...When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. Navy seized the Japanese fleet in the Pacific, including five samurai subs, as they're called in the new film. The subs were later sunk, to keep the technology out of the hands of the Soviet Union.The military didn't record where the boats had been laid to rest, thinking no one would want to know...

    ...Two bombers inside the samurai sub I-14's watertight hangar (pictured in a computer-generated cutaway image) could catapult off the deck within minutes of surfacing, say archaeologists who found the wreck of the World War II Japanese submarine off Hawaii in February 2009.

    In dry dock the I-14 submarine stood almost four stories high and, at 375 feet (114 meters), was longer than a football field. The Japanese aircraft-carrying submarine held up to three folding-wing float planes armed with 1,800-pound (816-kilogram) bombs.

    That a submarine could have bombing capability was an idea well ahead of its time, said NOAA's Van Tilburg. "That concept is so powerful, because essentially that's what we have today," he said, referring to modern submarines armed with guided missiles.


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Killjoy Propelling The Farce!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,238
    Probably both, at least as far as not letting the Russians get their hands on 'em. I think the general idea in regard to that was not to let Crazy Ivan get ahold of any Axis equipment that might be in any way innovative which Ivan could then copy.

    IIRC, the I-400 class were supposed to have been intended to make an attack on the Panama Canal at some point during the war. I don't think the actual setup with the internal hangar and catapult on the deck involved any revolutionary technology. Just a big watertight chamber, really. Also, battleships of the day used catapult launched floatplanes as scouts, by way of comparison.

    Plus it's a hell of an investment to carry a whopping three aircraft.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    I mean - the thing's sheer size is impresive, but it's just so "typically Japanese" in it's impractical weirdness.

    Pic of the hangar hatch - supposedly I-400 - here:
    http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/Images8/HangarDoorI-400Class.jpg

    I-400 at sea - you can see the aircraft storage compartment and catapult quite well - here:
    http://www.amazing-planet.net/slike/I400/sen_toku.gif
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    It was a stroke of genius, the major ship production and training facilities were on the east coast, the pacific war, on the west.

    The idea is that theyd bomb just one water gate, whilch would empty the entire canal, preventing reinforcements for months at a time, and when repairs ahd been enacted, bomb em again.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    When that thing came up on radar, could they see how ginormous it was?
     
  8. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    the sub? the US did not have patrol ships monitoring every part of the ocean, and even than their radar was meant to detect a battleship around 200 feet high from waterline to mast, not a sub which is around 50-60.

    And also, the US suspected an attack on the panama canal to be on the same level of likelihood of Jesus coming back down, walking on water, and stopping the war, and actually when the possibility was dicussed during world war 2 im positive someone in high command probably said something very similar.

    For starters nobody thought the ability to launch seaplanes from a sub was possible.

    And just as a thought, whom was the idiot that made that 3d model? why would he put planes on the side of the sub? theyd never work. even if the sub had dived for thirty seconds theyd become inoperable.

    Oh my apologies there, i jsut realized they were put there for purposes of scaling, the author wasnt implying thats how they were stored
     
  9. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,742
    Um, like that was gonna work.
    We Brits had done it prior to WWII, as had the French.
    Not exactly bomber-carriers, but the principle is the same.
     
  10. Killjoy Propelling The Farce!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,238
    An air attack was apparently one of their big concerns

    Canal defenses included rardar installations, anti-aircraft gus, and air fields.




    The artwork in the OP seems to show the aircraft hangar as transparent/translucent in order to illustrate where they were stored.
     
  11. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    The only problem when you think of it, is that it is a one or maybe two strike deal. After the first strike the Americans would reinforce it.

    Which the Japanese really should have put more effort into that objective. Every aa gun and fighter at the canal is one that is not fighting the Japanese.

    Take the marine raiders, they were extremely controversial at the time because they were meant to land on islands blow up as much as possible and escape via submarine. Their goal wasnt to just blow things up, that was a secondary goal, their primary was more strategic which was to make the japanese reinforce all their island defences, the idea being that it took away resources from other things.
     
  12. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    I am amazed that those planes could actually work after being submerged. And even then i doubt their life span is more than a few months submerged.
     
  13. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,742
    It's a trade-off.
    Yes it would have diverted US equipment away from the front, but it also required Japanese equipment to be built/ not used at the front.

    What?
    They weren't "submerged", they were in sealed hangars, subject to little worse conditions than any naval aircraft, and probably better - they wouldn't have been ranged on-deck, or brought out, in bad weather.
     
  14. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    bombing the gates would have been a great idea for the japanese.

    From the picture on the article you linked me to, it looked like the seaplane was fastened to the deck.
     
  15. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    Fedr808, the pic is a cut away example of what it looked like. The planes aren't on the outside
     
  16. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    not that one, the one dwy linked to.
     
  17. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,721
    Surprised no one brought this up:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookout_Air_Raid



    Just found this one too, I didn't even know about it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Fort_Stevens
     
  18. Killjoy Propelling The Farce!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,238
    I dunno... ...these don't sound like examples of a lack of concern to me:

    In January 1940 General Stone completed almost three years of duty as Commanding General, Panama Canal Department, and was succeeded by Maj. Gen. Daniel Van Voorhis, who came to his new post from command of the Fifth Corps Area. One of the first tasks the new commanding general undertook was to complete the reorganization.

    The immediate impetus was a letter from the War Department instructing the commanders in Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Canal Zone to submit, for the consideration of the newly created Air Defense Board, a complete study of the problem of defense against air attack, including the role of antiaircraft artillery, Aircraft Warning Service, and "the proper types, numbers and organizations and coordination of means and agencies required."

    http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch12.htm

    Since midsummer of 1941 the harbor defense troops, the Aircraft Warn-ing Service stations, and the antiaircraft defenses of the Panama Canal had been on a continuous round-the-clock alert. Locks and other sensitive areas were under constant guard against sabotage. Transit guards were being placed on all vessels passing through the Canal. The bomber command and some of the pursuit squadrons were on a 24-hour alert. Plans had been worked out for Army support of "the various naval commanders in the Caribbean Theater." In the Fifteenth Naval District, which included the waters immediately near Panama, the Navy was conducting a continuous surface patrol supplemented, to the extent the availability of planes permitted, by an air patrol.55 These measures were fully reported by General Andrews to the War Department in response to a warning sent to the commanding generals on the west coast and in the Philippines, Hawaii, and Panama on 27 November.
    http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch13.htm


    I don't think that was the case, especially after the Pearl Harbor attack.


    Considering American production capacity, I don't think the amount of material thus diveerted would have made that big a difference.
     
  19. Killjoy Propelling The Farce!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,238
    Don't forget Operation K !

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



     
  20. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    The Japanese really cared very little for attacking the US. What they really wanted were Their big concern was with the soloman islands, guadalcanal airfield, Australia.

    The reason they went to attack midway was that they saw it as a good way to start an attack on hawaii. But they knew that they had absolutely zero chance of succesfully invading (and i emphasize invading there) the US. But attacking midway would be a great way to cripple the US ability to reinforce Australia. The aleution islands were merely a feint by the Japanese.

    The Japanese really wanted Australia, Guinea, etc...

    Keep in mind that they did not want a war with the US if they couldve avoided it. If they felt the US would not get involved if the Japanese attacked those islands, China, and Korea they would not have attacked Pearl harbor.

    But since they knew the US would get involved they figured that they should make a surprise attack and cripple as much as they possibly could.

    The Japanese saw Pearl Harbor as a good way to keep the US navy from being a threat for what they thought would be at least a year. What they did not expect was the fact that the US could replace the lost ships within around 6 months maybe a little more. But to pay them their due, the US fleet didnt start becoming truly effective until maybe 3 months after that because there is that lag period because the pilots and crewmen need to gain experiance.

    The Japanese would have seen the destruction of the locks as another significant way to keep the navy at lower effectiveness for a long period of time. Which is actually pretty surprising they didnt use more resources in that attack.

    The problem is that the Japanese could not replace good fighter pilots.
     
  21. Killjoy Propelling The Farce!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,238
    `
    Ach !

    I thought you were making the case that the US was not concerned with a Japanese attack on the canal.
     
  22. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    Of course they were concerned with a Japanese attack, it's just that they were more concerned on the Australian region.
     

Share This Page