Write4U's stream of consciousness

Yes, I see the argument of time as an independent "dimension" apart from "change", but as I explained I do not agree with these conclusions.

From my perspective that Time is an emergent abstract measurement, I believe they have it backward.

I believe this should be interpreted and read as:
"Time did not discover consciousness, consciousness discovered time."

Assuming that time for this universe began at the BB, it becomes clear that Time is result of the appearance, and chronology of the inflating universe. But consciousness in some form did not emerge until the first biological cells that were capable of sensory observation and later evolved into complex environmental data processing systems, offering an evolutionary advantage

This also agrees with the concept of "natural evolutionary creative processes" as so eloquently explained by Robert Hazen, as well as the biological evolution from unconscious simple responsive patterns into conscious complex cognitive patterns as proposed by ORCH-OR.

An excellent and entertaining NOVA presentation is on Youtube, is designed as a brief history of the growing utility we receive from applied mathematics, including landing on Mars, using universally known mathematics to "plot" a trajectory.

 

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Only to tell you that you had misread my concept of Time. No prejudice intended.

Replying as I am reading your post.

Thank you for that insight. I am sorry if I sounded antagonistic.

I have read the rest and will need some time to respond. Actually, I am excited to find a person who is willing to discuss this deep existential subject. I'll be careful.

 

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Everyone tends to 'gang up' on W4U for a reason. The easiest way to understand this reason is to simply engage him in a discussion. After a while you will also be pulling out you hair at his bad faith arguments and obtuse replies.

 

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No, that is not true. I argue from good faith in science, albeit not necessarily in a scientific way.

And, as I predicted, after a few years of advancing the merits of microtubules against the most insulting opposition, we are finally beginning to recognize the microtubule networks as essential in data transmission and as a candidate for the substrate from which consciousness emerges.

Of course this is obtuse, ask Randwolf, he may be able to answer more technical questions in depth.
I only seek clarity in understanding and please don't play spoilsport.

 

I thought this “white paper”, (whatever that is - I only know its meaning in the British parliamentary sense) was a hilarious spoof. The author’s name is a bit of a giveaway, surely?

 

I'm glad you appreciate my humor.

You refuse to look at things from my perspective. Self-organization is not the cause, but is the mathematical ordering of the molecular pattern

This may be of interest:

How water turns into ice —with quantum accuracy

more.....https://www.princeton.edu/news/2022/08/09/how-water-turns-ice-quantum-accuracy

 

I keep running across these tantalizing papers, that seem to confirm mathematics as an underlying property of the universe.

Mechanics, Mathematics

https://www.vaia.com/en-us/explanations/math/mechanics-maths/#

 

....."because of some physical principles"......

the AI machine can model the process using mathematics.

 

But I am not talking about an AI machine. I am talking about "quantum accuracy" and quantum speaks about values, not physics.

Quantum Fields DON’T exist!

What is a Quantum Field?

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a value....

a single value .....

https://medium.com/@thisscience1/quantum-fields-dont-exist-5a11baf9cebc#

 

As promised, here is a brief attempt to explain my POV. And suggest the same model, but based on Mathematics. not Time.

From the article.

Seems to me a modern version of "Father Time" (Chronos)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_time_travel

OK, from what I understand, If you replace the word "Time" with "Mathematics", it will all begin to make sense (pun intended).
My perspective does not require an abstract "conscious intelligence" (irreducible complexity) at the beginning. ID is based on that model.
My perspective requires only an abstract "ordering quasi-intelligence" (evolving mathematical complexity) from the beginning.
The Conscious part of the ability to "relate" to these mathematical laws comes much later

Many animals use mathematics, without knowing it. Some animals use mathematics knowingly.

In Eukaryote life on earth, consciousness emerged with the growth and evolution of sensory cellular refinements and speciation. Hazen is confident there is other life in the universe, based on the abundance of chemistry distribution in the universe and the relatively few biochemical processes necessary for "living organisms" with evolving abilities for eventual emergent "conscious awareness".

Question: Could we mathematically time-travel? Are we not already doing that?

 

Quantum theory is a theory of physics, not mathematics. Like other theories of physics it uses mathematics to model physically observed effects.

 

I admire your endurance.

 

Haha, my policy is occasionally to correct obvious errors for the sake of any other readers, but to do so very briefly and on no account to attempt to engage in - inevitably futile - discussion.

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Best policy I think.

 

Of course it uses mathematics to self-organize (model itself) into physically expressed patterns..

Is a quantum field a physical thing?

What is considered a physical object?

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In common usage and classical mechanics, a physical object or physical body (or simply an object or body) is a collection of matter within a defined contiguous boundary in three-dimensional space.

A field is not a collection of matter. A quantum is not a physical object.

Quantum state

And all that can be known about a quantum system is via mathematical symbolism, because that's all there is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_state
* i.e. "mathematically ordered and chaotically disordered"

Quantum_vacuum_state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_vacuum_state

The abstract foundation of universal existence is best described mathematically, because that IS how it functions, a logical deterministic chronology, starting from a single "value", or more poetically, "excellence", or religiously, "god" (which does not meet the requirement of simplest complexity).

 

And to complete the argument;

Measurement in quantum mechanics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_in_quantum_mechanics

If Nature expresses itself mathematically in countless ways and we can manipulate physical mechanics mathematically, it becomes obvious that Natural phenomena rest on the mathematical conditions and functions naturally present in the physical environment.

The point is that there is no mystique associated with mathematics, other than "why do mathematics work so well?", as if that is a flaw rather than proof of the abstract power of logical-mathematical mechanics.
Mathematics works so well because they ARE part of the universal equation.

Humans did not invent Universal mathematics, we discovered them, and that made science possible.
Until then, science relied on pure physics or Alchemy.

al·che·my
/ˈalkəmē/
noun
alchemy

Ever since mathematics was introduced, Physics became controllable and predictable. What more do you want?

 

That is a useless statement. Everything humans think is conceptual.

Chaos theory explains the self-organization of regular patterns in chaotic environments.

How nature's patterns form
by University of Arizona

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This image shows the pattern on the head of a sunflower as generated by a mathematical model of plant growth.
Credit: Matt Pennybacker, University of Arizona.

more....
https://phys.org/news/2011-02-nature-patterns.html#

Have you ever asked why it is useful in describing the natural phenomena?

Ok, we agree.

What makes it a physical object? Is the ball's roundness a physical requirement? What is causal to a tennis ball being a spherical object?

Bingo!
Physics emerge from non-physical chaotic fields, as described in Chaos Theory.

I disagree. Fields exist without human conceptualization. Take humans away and nothing changes.

IMO, that touches on the very crux.
As I understand it, a "quantum" is a single unique value that is mathematically related to other "quanta"

I agree, but that is a false argument. My body knows a lot about itself at quantum field scale (note I referred to the human biome as a quantum field) and that process already exists at "fine grain" spacetime fabric, but my conscious brain can only process data at very selective gross sensory scales.

Feast your eyes on a literary delight....

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Naturally occurring mathematics.

Human maths are the symbolization of discovered natural mathematical processes that allow regular patterns to be formed, which are evident everywhere starting with the Table of Elements. .

And I like Tegmark's perspective that reality fundamentally consists of dense mathematical patterns expressed and measurable as gross physical objects and behaviors.

Tegmark believes that it exists and will be just another mathematical equation.

Life on earth used the Fibonacci sequence long before man appeared on the scene.

No, I try to look a little deeper than man's extraordinary ability to understand the mathematical nature of things, rather than say "bacteria", that communicate via mathematical chemistry, aka. "quorum sensing".

It is a mathematical function that controls pattern formation.

Yes, the ability to observe and measure the self-ordering mathematical properties appearing in nature.

I am only expressing my perspective on the Science I quote in support of the mathematical regularities that seem to pervade all of spacetime.

 

The bit in red here seems not to be a quote at all, but made up by you - and ballocks. A mixed state is not "chaotically disordered".