Without Religion

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Dec 13, 2016.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I often wonder if the world would be a better place with no religion at all.
    I mean that humans have no concept of God.

    It seems history is full of terrible deeds which are often seen as a direct consequence of religious beliefs.

    Are they or was religion an excuse so as to hide other matters say a mere land grab.

    For all its problems I am not sure humans could function with out religion so I don't know what one could replace religion with.

    What are your thoughts?

    Get rid of religion and if so why and what could you substitute for it.
    Could civilization even happened if there were no religions.
    Alex
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    The power vacuum would simply be filled with emperors like unto gods. That has happened countless times across history.
     
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  5. river Valued Senior Member

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    Civilization would have come around sooner actually . because Humanity would have gotten tired of war .
     
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  7. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Would we first have to have civilization before we could have war?
    Alex
     
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Nope.

    Think competing tribes of ancient proto-humans.
     
  9. river Valued Senior Member

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    Well ..maybe , depends on your definition of civilization .
     
  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well like so many discussions we need some definitions.
    Can we define of fighting between primitive groups as war?
    Alex
     
  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I had not thought about it as a power thing.
    Let's add a condition, only republics exist.
    And leaders can stay in office a max of eight years.
    Would the people see the leader as Godlike?
    Alex
     
  12. river Valued Senior Member

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    Why wouldn't you ?
     
  13. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    We would be better off without religion but we would also be better off without ignorance, aggression, intolerance, etc. Most problems are due to the nature of man and would be there in another form without religion.

    It is amazing that it's still around however. It's not surprising that it's still around in places where there is still a lot of ignorance but it's amazing that it's still around in industrialized countries.

    I find it even more interesting where you find religious people, like Jan, in W. Europe where most people aren't particularly religious.
     
  14. river Valued Senior Member

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    Religion tried to civilize Humanity too soon .

    The Nature of man was not allowed to mature because of religion. Hence we still war .

    Sure we would have more wars etc. for maybe 500 to 1000yrs longer , but Humanity would have grown out of this need to expand , conquer and dominate any people . We would have matured .
     
  15. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    We wouldn't be able to wonder.

    Define religion.

    Stalin tried, but it was a tad unsuccessful.

    Erm, without God, we wouldn't have any?

    Fields of vats, with Lenny Kravitz's ''Field of Joy'' blasting through some speakers.

    You started off with God, and ended up with religion. I'm confused.

    jan.
     
  16. Baldeee Registered Senior Member

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    Why not?
    Why don't you offer one.
    Stalin tried what?
    Who said that we'd be without God?
    The scenario from the OP is simply being without religion and without the concept of God.
    Do you think God is just a concept, that being without that concept would mean God does not exist?
    There's an album cover and music video I'd like to see.
    Clearly, because he made no mention of God not existing, just being without religion and no concept of God.
     
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder if you are correct Jan.
    Thank you for presenting your view.
    As a generalization the belief in all and any Gods and the groups organisations and customs relating to a belief in God.
    You can treat it as wide as you like so long as we have as a central premise a God or Gods.
    I think Starlin probably drove many to religion.
    Others seeking to get rid of religion should look to see why he made a poor job of it.
    Personally I don't think Starlin offers a good role model for how anything should be done.
    He oversaw considerable misery and millions of deaths have been attributed to him.
    I find that interesting Jan.
    I take you at your word and realise you really believe what you said.
    Needless to say my belief is very different.
    Very funny but I guess you could not really imagine a world without God/religion, I think I understand.
    My world would be no different except I would not be posting on a religious forum.
    Its funny how God isn't in my life and I haven't even noticed except for unfortunate encounters with folk who have tried to dud me whilst praising the lord...Damn hypocrites.

    No you are not Jan you know what I am on about and don't dare say you don't.

    I like your style but don't get silly with me now.

    Do you think we would have become civilized without religion.

    With primitive people I think control via religion would work better than trying to control by force.

    I mean if you put God in the mix and folk believe they will behave much better I believe.

    What do you think?

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  18. wellwisher

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    God requires faith, which is the belief in things that can't be perceived by our fives senses. Science, on the other hand, requires that we prove things based on perception with these five senses. We can prove things, in real time, with our senses. Faith works better to perceive the past and the future, since sensory data is lacking or is incomplete.

    Physics is one area of science that makes use of faith. Dark energy and dark matter, are two examples. These have never been proven in the lab; nobody has even seen these, directly, with the eyes for verification. These are inferred from observations, based on looking through the mental prism of theory. Like all faith, it assumes this has to be true, without seeing with the eyes, because it will be proven someday in the future, to the senses. You can take the boy out of religion, but you can't take religion out of the boy.

    Religion is connected to the way the most modern parts of the brain are wired. Religion is connected to perception that exists beyond the fives sense, which allows us to transcend time and space. Dark energy is a transcendent theory, geared toward the future. Religion is about evolving human nature. They create conditions, that may not be optimized to real time sensory reality. This is true, since these are geared to the needs of the future and not the present.

    It is similar to the parent who makes their child study and train in music, because they see their child benefitting by these skills for college. The child is like a little animal, who lives in the here and now, enjoying sensory reality. Unless he has respect and faith in his parent's wisdom, he will not be able to perceive this on his own, since he cannot see the future with his eyes. He may want to play in the field with his friends for real time data. This may require the parents (god) get stricter, forcing him to do, what he sees, in real time, as nonsense. He can't yet see the future, but only the now, which deprives his senses. If he lasts to where the future become the present; get into a good college where he does well, his faith becomes confirmed by his senses, so he can now learn to intuit and trust the future.

    If you look at Christianity, the biggest picture for the faithful is connected to getting into heaven and avoiding hell. Both places cannot seen with the eyes, via science, but are assumed to be perceptible in the future; death. Based on this future vision, there is certain training that is taught to achieve those ends. These may not be optimized to our sensory systems in real time, since it can deprive us of choices that maximizes sensory input. It is not about the present of human nature, but the future of human nature.

    Religious wars occur when people narrow the future vision, and try to apply it to the present; future made manifest to the senses; prophesies appear in the now. The sinners look for a sign in the present with the senses, leading to problems, since this point in time is not the future that is being taught.

    The analogy is the boy who is studying and training in music. He believes in his parents and accept his fate. But he also wants to be true to his real time sensory nature. One way to do this is to engage in fantasy, such as playing air guitar in front of the mirror. You make the future appear in the now. If this builds up pride, it can result is bringing the future prematurely into the present. Since this is not the proper future for the brain, therefore over compensation can result to hide inner doubt. Had he stayed on the true path the future, and accept the lack luster present, when the two finally meet, his faith will be confirmed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  19. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    I just did. Fields of vats with brains in them hooked up to computers.
    The vats, brains, and computers would all have evolved via natural selection.
    There would be no wars, unless the computers decide that they want to own more of the field than they are naturally allotted.

    And here you are obsessing about God.

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    That's easy to find out. Just find a community of people who are without some form of religion.
    Silly me. You can't because such a community doesn't exist.

    jan.
     
  20. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    I would abandon it as counterproductive to the human intellect and replace it with nothing.
     
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  21. sweetpea Registered Senior Member

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    I guess, at first, religion may have been ok at easing fear of the unknown, but some quickly saw it as a way of control. You know the rest of the story... Beyond the land grab, I always wonder how some people could preach against blood transfusion and other medical ways of preventing pain and suffering. Where does that spring from?
     
  22. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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  23. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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