Wings

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Tristan, Sep 19, 2004.

  1. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    Human power flight is possible. Just look at the Gossamer Albatross that crossed the English Channel in 1979. It had a 30 meter wing span.

    I once read a sci-fi story about the moon. Large underground chambers where created to store oxygen. In the story one of the recreational pass times was flying with wings. The 1/6 gravity meant that we easily had the power to flap and fly like birds with only a few meter wing span. Now that would be fun. (Cant remember the name of the book.)
     
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  3. Iristas Registered Member

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    hey guys, I've been thinking on this nice idea some time ago, to have wings...
    but i don't think of bird wings, since humans are mammals, i thought of flying mammals, real flying, not floating, so i came with the bats.
    so then you get a picture of a humanoid with bat-like wings on his back.
    then not only the physics in modern aerodynamics cause trouble... also there's the idea of having 6 limbs, no mammal ever had more than 4 right?
    the only creatures i can think of come from mithology (dragons, pegasi, centaurs...) or insects, spiders and multi limbed creatures (lobsters, centipedes)
    anyways, IF you had a pair of wings on your back, you still would need to get a connection with your brain.
    so... mayabe if we could find a way to change genetic codes so wings are formed and nerve paths made... we could fly one day
    and then we'd need to find a way to fold them ... we'd need new t-shirts

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    probably all of this has been said trougout the previous threads... but i just wanted to say it myself once i guess

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    - keep creative -
     
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  5. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    We evolved from appendage less ancestors. Then there was a fin ridge all over the body. These got specialized in a pectoral and pelvic fin appendage. Fore and hind limbs seemed to have evolved independently, but relatively quickly after each other. The whole molecular regulatory setup that determines their identity is different. Technically (for the sake of argument) you might be able to induce an extra pair of limbs if you get it all right, but that still leaves you with a badly adjusted general supportive structure for this limb. Grow another shoulder? How would that not disrupt optimal functioning of the organism? It would never fit in properly. Two shoulders on top of each other.

    making the forelimbs into a set of bat wings would be easier. Elongate the fingers. Adjust BMP signalling in between the digits to maintain the skin in between the fingers, add muscle and voila: a batwing.

    Not that this scenario is realistic in the sense it is achievable with present technology, it is realistic in the sense that it could happen, since it has happened (bats).
     
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  7. AO6 Registered Member

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    all very varied and thought out responses to having wings. Yet, most has been unsupportive of humans ability to grow wings. Have any of you heard of morphegenic fields? basically it is the energy field that carries original thought. If a whole group of people hear the thought and support it and believe in it, then it will gradually become real. And if time and matter are purely cicumstantial because of our own believed limitations, then it could be possible that one could spontaneously grow wings by an internal process of hollowing the bones and beginning calcification along the spine.

    The wing span has been a hot topic and someone mentioned bat wings. I've thought alot about that and the idea of folding wings, not to mention having to manafacture new clothing!

    It is our motivation or point in wanting wings that is the real issue. If you just want to cruise the skies, then yeah, go hangliding. My motivation in aquiring wings, is to enable us all to see our full potential. That is that we can create anything, in an instant, purely with thought. That our perception of ourselves and the world is based not on what we 'KNOW' but what we have accepted as truth from birth. We do not see a bird sing beacause we are told that we only hear it.

    In the wild animals learn and evolve through their collective thoughts, where they have all believed something and it has become a reality. This then evolves on and on and on. It is the same with humans but surely we have reached an intelligence now where we have the power to facilitate major changes (ie wings) much faster than we have been. Technologically and Scientifically, it is obviously that we as 'earth' have adapted our minds to what is possible and carried it out. What we have, most of us, overlooked is the very rapid advancement of our intellect and ability to access ultimate knowledge.

    So, if news of a winged human spreads the world within 3 years, I would personally not be the least suprised, maybe a bit miffed that I wasn't the first

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    :bugeye:
     
  8. Iristas Registered Member

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    hmm... I've heard about the morphegenic field theory before, and found it very intresting if it had any proof to work... allso the powerfull-believed-in-Idea creating/ reshape reality (like the spoon boy in the matrix, but allso many fantasy and SF books

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    ) i have heard before. But how strong can people believe (ok, god, many people strongly believe in their god, but it's never the smae idea, allways just a little diffrent, and not concrete enoug, becouse the general idea should be accessible to anyone. everyone hase it's personal god which 90% max matches the other ideas), and what a mind does'nt it take to fully beleive a new thought ? what would take a whole group to believe it ? sight is a good boost, but still not enough and you'd need to create it first before others could believe in it (so mislead them in a very good way, so the perception becomes reality) ... and then you'd be getting monsters all over the world, so luckily a human mind is not strong enough to break with "society-believed reality"

    and then something else, I heard of an experiment with a monestary monk in Nepal who Lifted him self in the air on pure strength of will (levitation) before the eyes of science... is this true ? did anyone else hear this ?

    but aren't we getting off-topic here? there's no biology in all of this... on the other hand... scientist should always approach an idea from all possible directions...
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2006
  9. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Would 100,000 years of 99.99+ percent of all the people on Earth believing be long enough? (to make their belief "become real")?

    If "no" - What use is this morphegenic field theory? It might as well not exist as it can never be observed or applied. Sort of like unicorns are useless for plowing fields.

    If "yes" - How and when did the sun stop going around the Earth?

    Lets drop this nonsense, unless some one needs a good laugh.

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2006
  10. Iristas Registered Member

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    "If "yes" - How and when did the sun stop going around the Earth?"

    lol, good point

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  11. draqon Banned Banned

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    AO6 is right you know...if a large amount of people were to believe in a specific goal truly, that is subconciously...this dream would be realized.
     
  12. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

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    You're a crackpot, you know...
     
  13. AO6 Registered Member

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    Centuries ago Alchemy was used to concoct potions and medicines, but alchemists also used their knowledge to harness mental power and engage changes. But Alchemy was slowly replaced by modern day science. Yet todays scince does not to our knowledge give the power of thought the same merit as an antibiotic for example.
    One would have to question why a brilliant world such as our own would entirely disregard and abonden the power of thought, a pratice which has existed for centuries.

    Hmm? Or Are we being denied the ability to see our potential. maybe humans have had wings, I mean someone thought to design a gargoyle.......... was that based on only thought.... or were they real living beings that were pushed out of existance because of collective thoughts on them being purely mythical....
    Once we would have never believed in dinosaurs.....
     
  14. Iristas Registered Member

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    ok, i have a theory here how this could work, based on a coulpe of other theories togheter.
    The snare theory: every smallest particle (electrons, quarks...) are snares of energy who vibrate with a constant harmonious vibration, with their specific amplitude and frequency to be the different parts, together, they make atoms, atoms make molecules, they get together in structures and so on, you know this.
    now: give every snare a certain level of intelligence, very limited, very primitive, just the pattern it should vibrate in to be what it is. Now say there are different types of snares, with the only difference in the strength of idividuality, meaning, that you can have leader snares, which dictate the pattern to the weaker snares. so you would get one leader snare in an atom, who uses the different snares who make up the parts of the atom, to gain more complextiy and the ability to grasp the whole idea of the atom and hold it together. then again there is a molecule-leader snare which holds all the atoms leaders in position. and so on. A human being so would consist of one snare being you, and if it were alone it only had the very idea of you, but with its body, and all the weaker snares you hold together, you get a much complexer network, allowing you to obtain thoughts, memories ideas and so on. because the you snare is strong enough to hold all the others togheter, you can exist. (a stone would be a stone and remain a stone because their is no way yet you can communicate it to him to be anything else, if you could give it another structure idea, and it'd be strong enough to maintain it, you could change the stone...)

    and we go on: where do these snares come from ? therefore we go backt to the snare theory again, which predicts that snares would introduce more dimmentions.
    so i say, there's a dimmension, i'll call it "outside", which is not anywhere in the universe, it's just another dimmension. this dimmension having no end, contains all the snares that don't have a pattern, but they have their variaty in "strength". so when a baby is born (or made, i mean, it happens before the baby actually comes out

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    ), the mother summons a snare strong enough to hold the idea of a human being can answer to this, since these snares in the "outside" only have their self, they have no complexity and only one desire, a pattern. So than, if the snare that comes to the new human being idea becomes the idea, it can start summoning other snares who don't neccesarily have to be that strong because they only need to fill in minor ideas.

    if you follow this theory, you could also summon snares into existence if you had a powerfull enough idea to summon one up to the job (strong enough) and for that, to keep such a huge idea, you would need enough "memory to hold it" you would need more complexity. mayabe you could do that by linking your mind/the you snare, to other complex organisms (or even artificial, like a computernetwork).

    I have parts of this combined theories from the book-series "Enders Game" by Orson scot Card ( I think it's the fourth book where they really discover the thorie, but the three foregoing books it allready starts...) They're good stories, exiting, so if intersted, here's an idea for getting a better view on this idea
     
  15. draqon Banned Banned

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    you havent felt the power of combined minds, I have while being communist Russia. You behave as one organism, have one specific goal, act as told, never question.
    Here's ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIRpA0vvXok&search=russian rap
     
  16. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

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    I just love how the newest fad with internet crackpots attempting to demonstrate (pseudo)scientific knowledge is to link to 'Youtube' for examples.

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    ‘Coz scientists all over the world are using the rigorous scientific data found on Youtube for their research and teaching, ya know.....

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  17. Iristas Registered Member

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    uh... keep ti cool guys

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    , first, please give me a closer description of a cracpot?

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    , it sounds to me like an awfull nagging person... (allways open to learn new descriptions, never know when you might need 'em)

    and second, whats all this on Youtube and science, This was just an example of the 'coummunistic hive-mind' bombasted in a rap-clip to show how willingly they give their lives for their country, hourah! just like good old days eh, battlefiels and all...

    this makes no sense at all, this topic is on wings nota bene, not about cracpots and russian rap on Youtube
     
  18. AO6 Registered Member

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    wings growing out from the spine (about 10 cm each side) and interfused with the rib cage and also the upper arms. The wings, when closed would rise above the humans head by at least 40 cm. At full spread the wings would be near 4.21 metres on either side and have a height of 1.89 metres (depending on size of human, lets say 1.75m). You could work these wings to fold down much the same as a birds and have them tucked behind when not in use. Yes, it would take enormous thought because not only do you have to visulaise the wings and how they would work. but also how they are going to FEEL.

    Crackpots are people who think outside the square... or was that a cube....

    hehehe, I am getting my wings but I'm not sure if my body will be able to handle the change. Think my body will give up long before my brain so perhaps if we attempt to change our physiology, if it doesn't fit with the current energy patterns, if it is too uncomprehendable then parhaps that is when we 'die' and get pushed into one of those 'other dimensions'.

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  19. UNIVERSE TODAY Banned Banned

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    From JonathanBreck.Com !

    Anyone seen Jeepers Creepers 1 & 2?


    I was wondering if an expert on animal flight was conferred with over the flying technique of the Creeper. Seems rather well done. Bats and birds have different methods of flight. While birds can soar and fly swiftly the bats are slower and more maneuverable. Bats are far less rigid. Instead of hollow bones like the avians they have thin solid needle-like bones. Instead of feathers they use muscles within the highly elastic membrane. Bats are the newest to flying among the vertebrates. Birds have been at it much longer and a whole group of extinct reptiles called Pterosaurs gave it a shot. Some reached the size of a Cessna. They seemed to have a flexible membrane too. Supported by fibres instead of finger bones, but to the same effect.

    The greek name for bat literally translated means "hand-wing". Bats really aren't all that different to humans. Their wings are very much like webbed hands which are used to claw through the air. Like some possums they probably started out as arboreal gliders.

    I've trying to devise an original 'man powered flying vehicle' for years. Its not the designs I have a problem coming up with but the right materials. My first model was composed of bamboo! Lol!

    After numerous experiments I'm convinced that artificial flapping wings are the way to go. My first experiments on the roof of my house were aimed at channeling all the thrust downwards but while it seemed more efficient to me at the time, I failed to recognise the importance of wing camber providing additional thrust. That aerofoil effect. We need to copy the animal kingdom.

    Nature has been working on the problem a lot longer than us. Even jet propulsion was used by squid long before model rocketry was thought up. Fish essentially fly through water but have reduced "wings" thanks to the denser medium they inhabit.

    Yes, flying domes on the moon would be a lot of fun. Maybe we can sell that idea to Richard Branson. I'm sure he'd like to try it too.

    A superlight glider with a pectoral anchor. I'd model it on a paper aeroplane. About the simplest design there is. Add oar like wings and stick a chimp in the bucket seat strapped to the oars. Smaller than a man yet pound for pound six times stronger. Then push him off a cliff.

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    Last edited: Jun 23, 2006
  20. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    No I will not LOL as I know:

    The Wright brothers were not truly the first to fly. They glided, under-power a short distance DOWN HILL from THE TOP of a sand dune using a set of tracks when the wind was helping. Possibly they could have done as well or even gone farther gliding without the weight of the motor!

    In IMHO the first true fight took place FROM A FLAT FIELD near Paris a couple of years latter. I.e. a motor powered plane lifted itself off the ground, flew around for a several minutes and then returned to land on the same level field. Most of the structure of that plane, was bamboo.

    Perhaps that is because the pilot was a Brazilian, Simon DuMont, who also was the first to make a controlled balloon flight, using a motor instead of being at the mercy of the direction the wind was blowing. He flew a circle over Paris (including going around the Eiffel tower, I am almost sure) which of course required half of the time going against the wind.

    Like most Americans, I had never heard of Simon DuMont before moving to Brazil. America generally tends to think it is the center of the universe and neglect the accomplishment of others.

    For example, yesterday:

    A Brazilian, trying to be nice (I think) in local bar while we were celebrating Brazil‘s 4 to 1 victory over Japan and the US was already eliminated in the first round of the soccer World Cup noted that at least the US was rarely beaten in baseball's "World Series."

    I said: "Yes, that is true", and did not comment on the self centered POV reflected in that name.

    This same egotism is what got US into the Vietnam war when the France, with soldiers able to speak with the educated Vietnamese, was defeated. I.e. Americans, despite being ignorant of the only western language spoken there, and thus easily tricked by natives who wanted to, would win because unlike the French, they were Americans.

    Now that is something to LOL about, not bamboo for flying.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2006
  21. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    As far as I know, the Wright brothers were the first to build a primitive (by modern standards) wind tunnel. They were the first to experimentally determine the correct basic shape of an airfoil, although there was theory already suggesting that shape.

    Note that Langley and others advocated a wing convex on the bottom, believing it would skip through the air like a flat stone skipping on water. Of course they failed to appreciate that the stone skipping on water was a surface phenomenon involving two surfaces with very different densities. We now know that the Langley airfoil would result in negative lift.

    BTW: Langley was financed by the US government via the army. After the Wright brothers flight, he tried to claim that he flew a plane prior to them. His claim was refuted, embarrassing him and the US Govt. Due to US govt. actions, World Almanacs and other references mention Langley as building the first experimental airplane, although the citations do not claim that it actually flew.
     
  22. UNIVERSE TODAY Banned Banned

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    Clement Ader was my kind of plane designer. With his really cool bat planes.


    Wiki


    The Wright brothers stole the title I'm afraid. The problem was that by the time the rest of the World had been cabled about Aders success, the two bicycle makers were already in the papers. Kind of sad really.
     
  23. UNIVERSE TODAY Banned Banned

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    I just fixed that grammatical error at Wiki.

     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2006

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