Will tensions between Iran and USA escalate into war?

this whole region was a big mess before Iraq1 or Iraq2. and the Islamic Republic's troublemaking began in 1979

 

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You mean when they got rid of their US imposed leader?

 

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Baron, I don't think they had as much when they were just one of many warring states. There are some real issues like their nuclear ambitions, but I feel that Bush's policies are exacerbating the problem.

 

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Especially when they got rid of the US-imposed SAVAK.

 

Previous attempts by the US to bring democracy into Iran have been strangely unsuccessful, for unknown reasons:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0210-07.htm

 

How sensationalist of you, Sam. But then I didn't expect anything different from you.

Please read your own posted article;

“SAVAK was founded in 1957 with the assistance of the U.S. CIA. Its mission was to place opponents of the Shah's regime under surveillance and to repress dissident movements through intimidation, exile, imprisonment, assassination, and torture.”

Note the word "assistance"??? Ya' know what that means? Well, it does NOT mean "imposed" as you'd have people believe.

The US has always "assisted" it's friends and allies of the world. Some might call that "wrong", but isn't it all a matter of perspective?

Baron Max

 

So who was the ally here?

And is it your contention that it is alright to assist the Shah to torture Iranian democrats for 25 years?

So whats the beef with Saddam then? He was an ally too.

 

I have no ill feelings towards Iran and Iraq. It's simply a case of reaping what you sow.

Greed; ain't it a bitch?

- N

 

The Shah, of course!

You'll have to provide substantial evidence that the US government knew and approved of any of what you assert. Without such evidence, your statements are nothing but bullshit rhetoric from someone who hates the US.

You said it yourself, Sam ......."was", as in past tense. I know it's difficult for you to understand, but people do change over time. Think about it, perhaps you'll even come to realize that.

Baron Max

 

I think that's very magnanimous of you. But why shouldn't you expect the same or similar from the Iranians and the Iraqis? Or do you hold to a double standard?

For all of eternity? Revenge is mine sayeth the Iranians and the Iraqis? And you approve of that? Should you have to pay for what someone else did in the past? If so, for how long? And to what extent?

Vengence is seldom the best way to approach a diplomatic and/or negotiated effort, wouldn't you say?

Baron Max

 

Why?

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/death_squads.htm

Apparently friendship is a moving continuum for the US- based on self interest.

 

Because. (No, I didn't click on your link, Sam ...I'm so sure that it's just more of ther bullshit that you seek and find on the 'Net to justify stirring the shit-pot more, and getting people all heated up .....so you can sit back and watch the fur fly!)

Yeah, the US should never do anything based on self-interest. We should only take into account the interests of all other nations ...first and foremost.

Baron Max

 

Ignorance is bliss.

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CIA Documents on the 1953 Coup in Iran

pdf file:http://web.payk.net/politics/cia-docs/published/main.pdf

 

The NY times release of the CIA documents:

Has links to pdfs of original on this link
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

 

Sam, there's nothing new in all of that bullshit! It's past history and you seem to forget the old saying: "The best laid plans o' mice and men." Or better yet, "Shit happens!"

Human history is full of such events that could ONLY be seen with a damned crystal ball, of which few of us but you have! ...well, some armchair quarterbacks have claim to have 'em, too.

Baron Max

 

But its not past history Baron.

The US army is in Iraq right now.

And there are Shiites there who may have lost their families to torture by the SAVAK.

 

I'm me; I'm giving my stance on the matter. I'm not telling others how they should feel so I hold to no double standard but rather freedom of expression.

Anyhow, why should I expect the Iranians and Iraqis to have the same feelings as myself? Iran and Iraq have done nothing to us. We're the ones that initiated it all. We're in Iraq, they're not over here. We overthrew Iran's government and installed the evil leaders that spawned all the bad things in their region. We're the powerful ones and manipulate the world to our advantage. Everything is our doing. Why should those affected countries have no ill will towards us?

The moment I see some Iranians and Iraqis on our homeland causing trouble as we did to them, then sure, I'll have the same feelings for them as they do of us, but until then, there is no double standard. We're the ones causing all the trouble for our greedy interests, not them. Everything they've been doing so far have been in response to us being where we don't belong.

We're the ones reaping what we sowed. We're dealing with the problems that we created. We're the ones in Iran and Iraq, they're not over here, unless you're one who buys into the whole "Saddam was behind 9/11" BS.

And no, people shouldn't have to pay for what others did in the past, however, our manipulative actions weren't some small one-time thing, but have happened non-stop since then. In regards to Iran, our initial actions of simply installing the Shah caused a ripple-effect that have everything to do with today, and that's just talking about that one incident 40 years ago, not the numerous that we continue to do. It's not like we do simple things that are easily forgiveable, when we do things, we do it with the intent of causing chaos. That's the whole reason why the U.S. and Britain did what they did in the Middle East after the fall of the Ottoman Empire because they don't want another unified empire in that region as we try and minimalize competition.

As for Iraqi vengeance, what, they should all forget what we did 3 years ago? Is that your cut-off time to forgive and forget? Even if you were that forgiving, you'd still be ignoring that we're STILL there. At the very least, for the Iraqis to forgive us after 3 years, we'd have to at least pull outta there for that short, forgiveable, countdown clock of yours to begin.

Saying to forgive and forget is quite easy when we're the side causing all the trouble, heh. It's quite funny you'd even expect anyone to do so.

- N

 

well said, neildo.

 

I know this is gonna' seem an odd question, but I didn't know that Iran was the same thing as Iraq. When did that happen, Sam?

I had relatives killed/executed in England in about 1587 or so. Should I still hate all of the English people for that? And should I teach my children to hate the British forever ...and to teach their children to hate them, too? Forever? For that one event in history?

How long should the hatred and the threat of vengeance for past events last, Sam?

Baron Max

 

Please refer Neildo's post above.

He has said it much better than I could have.