Why is there SETI?

So, SETI detects something of an intelligent nature, what next?

 

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We would have to decide whether it is desirable to set up communications with them. Assuming that such a thing is feasable to begin with.

 

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Fair enough, lets say we do set up communications, then what? If the signals have been determined to come from our own galaxy, which may be likely compared to another galaxy, communications may take hundreds, thousands of years to complete a single transmission. By that time, we may have already reached technological progressions to begin exploring the galaxy ourselves, long before the first transmission has been completed.

Is it really worth it?

 

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Indeed, chances are that the round trip for a message would rule out any practical form of two-way communication.

We can, however, send a signal back, giving them the opportunity to learn that they are not alone. I'm not sure if and how we benefit from this at all.

 

Well duh, haven't you seen the movie Contact? They give us a puzzle that we have to work out then build a ship so we can go visit them.

Actually, we go to bed that night with the warm fuzzy feeling that we are not the only ones spinning around empty space. It will inspire poets and writers and artists into new ways of thinking and all the wars on Earth end indefinetly.

 

I'm not convinced mankind will be wiped out by climate change. Sure perhaps billions could die, but remember only 2,000 humans were on Earth 100,000 years ago due to environmental changes. If they could surive then, I'm sure at least some of us could surive the same thing today with all of our nice toys.

 

We can, however, send a signal back, giving them the opportunity to learn that they are not alone.

Excellent answer. But are we doing it for our benefit or theirs? If ours, what might be the outcome of such a answer?

Well duh, haven't you seen the movie Contact?

Unfortunately, yes. I was dragged kicking and screaming and was hog-tied to the seat in very much the same way as Alex in A Clockwork Orange. A very bad movie, indeed.

Aside from that, why would you compare with Hollywood?

It will inspire poets and writers and artists into new ways of thinking and all the wars on Earth end indefinetly.

True, one would assume such things, until theists get their hands on it, in which wars would probably escalate.

 

I’m not nearly so confident that this “must” be the case. In observing the human condition, I must confess I’m often unable to define a link between altruism and intelligence. In fact, I’ve often wondered if the opposite was true – that greater intelligence can increase the potential for certain adversarial behaviors. I think that, given the destructive nature of the technologies involved, any space-faring species would have to be quite passive, agreeable, regimented and benign within the framework of their own culture or civilization. I would disagree that this disposition would need to extend outside of this boundary.

The people that undertook the exploitation of indigenous peoples the world over centuries ago were not even representative of humanity at that time. They were a more restless, ruthless, focused, minority that stood in contrast to the overall value set or characteristics of their “nations”. Since this “lunatic fringe”, if you will, is still alive and healthy at this time in any country you’d care to visit, I would hazard a guess that the behaviour of exploiting conquistadors, etc., very much does reflect a potential wellspring of current human behaviour. And will continue to do so until the biological causation underlying these types of dispositions is identified and dealt with.

One resolution of the Fermi Paradox that doesn’t seem to get much airplay is the idea that there is a “Main Sequence” for the development of intelligent life in the galaxy. Let’s suppose that the Milky Way were to kick out, in an average life span, say, 1 million spacefaring species. The per-annum rate will vary throughout the life of the galaxy – probably a typical bell curve dependent on all sorts of factors we know nothing/little about at this time.

One resolution to the problem may be that we are “early” in the galaxy’s intelligence production sequence rather than unique – say 5,000 before us, 995,000 after us. This appeals to me a little more because it helps square the circle – being alone in the galaxy is overwhelmingly improbable, but we’ve yet to discover any evidence of other civilizations.

On the contrary, I think we can. If we suppose, as per traditional thinking, that there is an average life span to a star faring civilizations, that such cultures do not necessarily endure for the lifetime of the galaxy because they can destroy themselves, then this implies four interesting things:

1) The star faring species we are interested in is the one that “bucked” the trend: it did not perish within the “average” lifetime of such things, and indeed will never do so, instead being destroyed only at the end of time and the universe itself. This species was also probably “lucky” in the galactic sequence: they were birthed early due to any number of fortunate occurrences in their home system.

2) The most dangerous thing in the entire galaxy to a civilization such as #1 above is other arising star faring species.

3) If there is a “main sequence” to the rate at which the galaxy creates space-faring species, then it may be that any civilization as per #1 above will have to identify and “deal” with new space faring species continuously, perhaps even at a rate of 1 every few solar years or decades when the galaxy is at “peak” production.

4) The combination of the above three points creates a security dilemma, or imperative, for any civilization meeting the conditions of #1 above. If both #1 and #2 are correct, then this civilization must be in a position to identify potential dangers (i.e., us) as quickly as possible, meaning a presence on a galactic scale.

One might suppose that an ancient civilization’s technology would make them secure against newcomers, but this is not necessarily so. It is certain that there is an absolute limit to technical advances within our universe, and that science itself at some point “flatlines” – that is, after reaching a certain point, no subsequent, significant development of any technology occurs.

The most immediate question then becomes how fast a newborn star faring species will evolve it’s technology and how quickly it can match the abilities of the “flatlined” ancient civilization. If the answer is, “quickly”, then an ancient space faring civilization would have to be on our doorstep at the time of our birth – otherwise we could match their technology between the time which they detected us, and the thousands of years it would take them to arrive here.

I recall reading an article on the nuts and bolts of the SETI detection capability a number of years ago. If my memory is correct, our ability to detect realistic communications within the galaxy was so slight that no meaningful conclusion could be drawn from SETI’s failure.

 

For those that keep hoping of finding a SETI signal coming from deep space may ultimately be disappointed. Even if one were detected, the chances are zero next to none that any communication could ever be inititated. The distances are far to great to even be considered. Nothing productve could ever be established other than the fact that someone or something else is living or has lived out there before.

Okeydoke

 

There is no immediate benefit for us, as far as i can see.

On a sentimental note: if someone else would know of our existence, we would have a chance of being remembered if we happen to get extinct before they do. Personally, i'd find that a comforting thought.

 

Perhaps there are others out there who are already aware of our existence but won't make contact until they see us make scientific efforts to do the same. Maybe we just need to tick some boxes that would make them understand that we are ready for contact... maybe.

 

If there were something or someone else out there that knew of our existance down here on planet earth, they would have three basic options to consider; Try & communicate with us or just flat ignore us because we're either to primative and/or violent for their tastes or just to far away to be beneficial to them. Even if an ET were to try and land here, I would'nt hesistate to tell them that if they did, any goverment (especially the U.S.) would probably (no doubt they would) sieze and strip down their spacecraft (for the sake of science) and whisk them away to parts unknown for endless secret sessions of interrogation, medical tests and to suck up their advanced scientific knowledge. Unfortunately for them, it would be a one-way trip, no matter how friendly or unfriendly their intentions.

Okeydoke

 

Perhaps there are others out there who are already aware of our existence but won't make contact until they see us make scientific efforts to do the same

In essence, I could agree with that. But I wonder why we have not yet detected them? You would think that if they are more advanced then us, and have already detected us, we would also detect them. Most likely, they must also adhere to the laws of physics.

 

Well there's a lot to be said for the fermi paradox...

It's hard looking through telescopes and seeing plenty of shine from other stars but seeing no sign of life. Maybe if they arranged a nebulae to form the words 'wassup?' then we could say there is life, but it's strange that there is nothing there that we've picked up on.

The thing is, if humans were capable of putting a HUGE object into space that would alert any alien astronomers that there is intelligent life here, would we do it? Lets say it would be cheap and not so hard to do, would we do it?

 

That's not quite true. The Ohio State Radio Telescope did pick up a signal from deep space back in 1977. It was called the 'WOW Signal'. It bore all the right radio signal characteristics, signal profile and radio signal dynamics of a strong radio signal originating from the Sagitarius region in deep space. All earthly artifical extraneous noise interferences that could have created it were basically ruled out. However, after hundreds of repeated attempts, the signal was never picked up again and scientists today are still debating and divided over it's origin and possible connection to ET. Some scientists and radio astronomers liken the 'WOW Signal' to a possible becon-like radio signal originating from parts unknown in deep space.

Okeydoke

 

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For the strongest Wow! data point, the epoch 1950 right ascension shown on the computer printout was: 19h17m24s, while the corresponding declination was: -27 degrees and 3 minutes of arc (- 27d03m). Thus puts the source in the direction of the constellation Sagittarius.

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<pre>
_____ Original R.A Corrected (End) Corrected (Middle)
6 19h16m48s 19h21m58s 19h21m53s
E 19h17m00 19h22m10s 19h22m05s
Q 19h17m12s 19h22m22s 19h22m17s
U 19h17m24s 19h22m34s 19h22m29s
J 19h17m36s 19h22m46s 19h22m41s
5 19h17m48s 19h22m58s 19h22m53s

</pre>

 

Haven't read much about the Wow! signal, but I'm sure I read that the radio telescope used double checks every part of the sky it looks at. Not sure of the in's and out's of it all but basically after scanning one part of the sky (like where the Wow! signal was) another part of the radio telescope scans the same area, but nothing was found the second time.

Taking that into account, and that SETI always claim to get many signals that get ruled out, I lean towards doubting that the Ohio state people found little green men. But I'm basing that largely on ignorance as I've never really bothered to read up on it much.

But I'd like to know how we know for sure it came from outer space and that it wasn't interferrance from Earth. From what I know about SETI one of the techniques used to judge this is to call up another Telescope on another part of the globe to see what they find in the area. But then if the same telescope already checked twice and nothing was found...

 

A second radio telescope 'didn't' double check the same part of the sky that night as it was picked by the Ohio State Radio telescope on Aug. 15th, 1977 because the signal '6EQUJ5' was printed out on a computer printout on Channel 2 to be discovered later by Dr. Jerry Ehman. Also 'all' possible earthly interferences at that time 'were' checked out and 'non' were found to be the 'culprit' for creating the 'WOW' Signal. The 'WOW' Signal came from the direction of Sagittarius and because it was a strong enough signal and bore all the right radio signal characteristics and dynamics and as a result, it has to be classified as probably one of the 'best' candidates for a possible radio signal originating from deep space. The now exinct Ohio State Radio telescope at that time was 'not' looking for any SETI signals in 1977 and because the SETI program had not yet been introduced yet, non were expected. The 'WOW' Signal has and always will be anomoly in radio astronomy and to SETI research. Then and even now, no one can prove that it was and no one can prove that it wasn't a true radio signal from ET originating deep space. In other words, your guess is as good as mine.

Okeydoke

 

(Q),

What did you not like about the movie? Did you read the book? It was 1000x better.

To answer the title question with a question, Why not? Isn't curiosity enough? Why go to Mars to look for signs of life? Why smash particles together, just to find more particles? There's a story (probably not true) about Faraday demonstrating electromagnetic induction to someone, and they ask "But what is it good for?" and Faraday responds "What good is a new born baby?"

The point being that basic research (which SETI is) dosen't require a practical goal. The practicalities will come out somewhere down the line where you least expect it, and then you'll be glad you did the researsh in the first place. Besides, curiosity is one of our defining traits as humans.

 

There is saying called 'Curiosity Killed The Cat'.

Okeydoke