Why is Mary not the Mother Superior of the Church?

Adstar, was Martin Luther, the man who broke away from the Catholic church, a Christian?

 

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Hi Dudes,

Yup, seeing the Catholic Church can claim the oldest known history in Christianity and thus the closest link to the eye witnesses of Christ, surely the Protestant Church or any other non-catholic denomination could/should be considered heretical and not vice versa?

Allcare.

 

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From his actions i do not believe martin luther was a Christian when he left the catholic church. he promoted hatred against jews and promoted progroms against them. But i do not know what his salvation status was upon his deathbed. Maybe he was saved at the last moment? We shall see.

 

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lutherans are most certainly christians

 

The catholic church came about by the political ambition of Constantine to become the Emperor of Rome and christians who where enticed by his promise of an end to persecution and the establishment of their faith as the religion of empire backed by imperial power and patronage.

Of course there was a price. Doing deals with satan always has a price. satan tried the same thing on Jesus. He offered him all the kingdoms of the world. But Jesus told him where to go. But sadly many early christians just could not resist the bait. They could not persevere to the end. They sought to save their lives and by doing so lost their eternal lives. They played the harlot with the prince of the world and became a tool of deception and persecution of true followers of The Messiah Jesus.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

I don't know. I think he may have been suffering from some sort of psychological illness. But I was actually referring to the fact that Martin Luther believed in Mary's perpetual virginity. In fact, I think most Lutherans and Anglians believe in Mary's perpetual virginity, while still believing in Martin's Luther's doctrines of Sola-Scriptura.

So you believe every doctrine the early church believed except for those that developed after Constantine corrupted the church?

 

Hello okinrus

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

If martin luther believed in marys perpetual virginity then he was not a Christian. And if the lutherans and anglicans believe in it then they are not Christians because the Word Of God clearly states that mary and joseph had natural born sons and daughters. If they truly believe that the bible is the authority as they claim then they would see the truth of this matter. But their Sola-Scriptura doctrine is disingenuous.

The catholic/eastern orthodox divide had more to do with political rivalry between Constantanople and Rome than it had to do with doctrine issues.

Likewise the catholic/protestant divide would have been a short popular anti corruption movement had not the powers of northern Europe wanted to be free from papal political influence in their affairs. The anglican church is a perfect case in point. The king of England wanted a son and he was prepared to divorce and behead his way through a number of woman to get it. He set up his own church to legitimize his rebellion against the Word Of God. Of course when the powers of this world want a religious stamp on evil they can always find a theologian to twist the truth to make evil good.

Paul talked of heresy in his time. Talking of people who where preaching another Jesus and others who where seeking to impost circumcision on the Gentile believers in the Messiah. So satan was trying to infiltrate and twist the truth long before the catholic church was set up. But before the catholic church was set up these lies where not backed by the power of the state.

Before the time of Constantine Christians where persecuted and killed in large numbers even as a form of entertainment in the coliseums. But satan knows you cannot have victory over a Christian by killing him. In fact by killing a Christian he gave a victory over eternal death to that Christian. No the way to have a victory over a Christian is to use the tactic of balaam. Balaam gave council to balak when the Jews who had left Egypt had arrived in Moab. Balaam told him that these people where backed by God and there was only one way to defeat them was to cause them to go against the will of God. Moab did this at Acacia Grove.

Numbers 25
1 Now Israel remained in Acacia Grove, and the people began to commit harlotry with the women of Moab. 2They invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. 3So Israel was joined to Baal of Peor, and the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel.

This lead to the death by plague of 24, 000 jews before Gods wrath was ended.

Peter talked of the same thing happening in his time

2 peter 2
15They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

and again in the book of Revelation

Revelation 2

14But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Satan greatest weapon is to get people to sin and say in their heart I have not sinned. Remember the stumbling stone? The stone that causes one to fall along the way is the one the person never saw.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

I'm not too sure how you can come up with this conclusion. Where does the Bible say that one must have read the entire Bible and understand the entire Bible to be Christian? More especially, where does it say that you have to believe Mary, or any other women had children? Where does it say you have to believe in your own interpretation? All I can find is the end of John which says who ever loves each other like Christ did, is a disciple of Christ.

St. Ignatius uses the term Catholic church around 100AD and he was thrown into the lions.

 

Hello okinrus

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I accept your point. One needs to accept The Messiah Immanueal /Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The point is if Jesus is ones lord one will believe in His words and follow his teachings. Now when one is a babe in Christ and comes to believe by whatever cause a false view of the Will of God then once that deception is revealed one must accept the correction and grow in knowledge of Gods will. Because it is false doctrine that is used like a wedge to slowly twist truth into something that can be used for evil.

Well it seems a minor point in the big scheme of things doesn’t it. What difference does it make if mary had or did not have other children with joseph? Well ask yourself what is the outcome of the ever virgin doctrine?
People have placed mary a human being into a position of perfection and we know that no human being is perfect. People now pray to mary for intercession with God. Mary is dead it is only through Jesus that we have access to God. So people are encouraged to pray to mary making their prayers of no effect. The only way people can communicate with the dead is through a séance, Saul did it to contact Samuel. So praying to other human beings is a waste of time and a diversion to whom we should be praying to.

Not sure what you mean here? I can only give the thoughts that I have. The source of my thoughts i believe is God. But i am open to correction on any issue if i am shown where i am wrong through scriptures.

Well love is the Law of Jesus, Love God, Love your neighbor. I like the following scripture it says a lot for me.

1 Corinthians 13
The Greatest Gift
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

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St.Ignatius?

Who put the St in front of his name?

Who had control of official history for centuries?

Ignatius may have been thrown to the lions he may have been a true Christian but can you trust that he mentioned the term catholic church? And even if he did was he talking about Constantines creation that would appear many years after his death?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

This is reasonable but by your admission that Mary was just an ordinary being, she is therefore outside the realm of doctrine. Your claim she did something is just as irrevelant as believing the world is flat. You believe further that no human can become perfect when Christ commands us "be perfect as your father is perfect."

 

Hi okinrus

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Not sure what you mean here? Outside the realm of doctrine?

My claim? No it is the bibles claim. I have given you scripture that clearly shows that mary had others sons and daughters. My belief is formed by those scriptures.

Well nothing happens on this planet without God allowing it. Murder, rape, genocide, child abuse, abortion, homosexuality and torture you name it, all evil happens on this world. God gives us the free will to do what we will but we who love Him seek to do His will and contacting the dead is not his will.

I have been looking for that verse where people talked to the risen saints I cannot find it. Could you tell me what verse it is? Also what bible you are referring to thanks?

It is not reasonable to assume anything when it comes to the will of God.

From your replies it seems you are pretty much locked on to the dogma of the perpetual virgin and praying to the dead. I don’t know if further discussion will be profitable for us on this issue. I will deal with your question on faith salvation in the next post God willing.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

Hi again okinrus

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We are saved by our faith in The Messiah Jesus and it is not from good works. Also Faith without works is dead. Seems contradictory? Well it isn’t. When we receive Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit that works within us to produce a desire to do good works. So good works Loving our neighbor is a product of our faith those who have faith will desire to do good works.

Its like a horse and cart. The horse is faith/Holy Spirit and the cart is good works/Love it is the horse that moves the cart not the cart that moves the horse.


Romans 4


Abraham Was Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

It is through belief that we are accounted as rightious not through our works because if it was through our works then salvation would not be a gift my grace but payment for works.We cannot earn our slavation by doing good. for we have all sinned.

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered; 8Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."


Romans 11
5Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

grace is a pure gift of God, why try to pay for it?We cannot make ourselves worthy of grace even if we could then it would no longer be grace and Jesus would have died for nothing

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

Hi okinrus last one for today

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Yes we can be perfect. Perfect in Spirit, but until we are resurrected we will not have a perfect body.

Paul explains this in Romans 7 and 8


Romans 7
14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

Can you see what Paul is saying hear even though he breaks the law and he hates the fact. He in his heart agrees with the Spirit (that he undoubtedly had) about the Law “, I agree with the law that it is good.”


17But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

Hear again he is condemning the sin that dwells in his carnal body.


20Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

See who important your will is?

21I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

So hear Paul declares he is at war with his own flesh in doing so he is revealing he has the SPIRIT inside him bringing him to understanding on this issue. He is serving God while still being a sinner. To try to explain it in another way the SPIRIT has caused him to develop a kind of split personality one that ensures he always serves the LORD with his mind.


Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Do you get it? He made it possible for everyman to condemn sin to their flesh for the body we have is not eternal it is corruptible and we shall leave our sin with it when we get our new bodies at the resurrection. Those who walk with the Messiah’s helper the SPIRIT will escape condemnation for we do not have our minds in agreement with the sin of our flesh.

5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So we can be carnal but at the same time “spiritually minded” and to be spiritually minded is “life and peace”. Those who are “in the flesh” are people who love sin who agree with sin who rebel against the LAW in their minds,

Remember the old saying “It is not if you win or loose it is how you play that game” Do you play the game in the right spirit? For in fighting against the sin we are in agreement with God that sin is evil and to be resisted. God knows we are carnal. God knows we are faulty human beings. We shall not be made perfect until we receive our new bodies upon the resurrection. But through the Spirit We can be made perfectly acceptable with God because we agree with Him even though we through our faulty carnal existence fail Him daily.

9But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Know Jesus Know Peace
No Jesus No Peace


All Praise The Ancient Of Days