Why is it taboo to discuss the responsibility of victims?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wynn, Nov 22, 2011.

Page 7 of 18
  1. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    The obvious point

    Yeah, I'm starting to think some of the mitigators actually envy such openly misogynistic societies.
     
    Tiassa, Nov 26, 2011
    #121

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  3. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    And I have known families where the father (as one example) was the perfect parent by all appearances, there was no domestic abuse or violence as one would assume or connect to domestic violence. Instead, every night after his wife fell asleep, he would go into his step-daughter's room and sexually molest her since she was 2 years of age. That is how she grew up, thinking it was normal and that was how all father's behaved. He told her she was daddy's special little girl, so she grew up thinking this twisted individual actually did it because he loved her and that he was a good father. She grew to enjoy it, she grew to become aroused by it. That is the nature of sexual abusers. And often, their child victims grow up thinking it is normal and feel appreciative of the attention they are getting. In short, he fucked with her brain so much she ended up killing herself. When she became a teenager, she started to question and started to not be comfortable, she became distressed when he she heard him doing the same thing to her baby sister, realising and hearing the muffled cries of pain from her sister that this possibly was not normal. So she went to her mother, who did not believe her and called her a whore, so she ran away from home and the police were called and she was found on the remote property and refused to say why she refused to return home. So they housed her in the local police station jail until her biological father could fly there and collect her.. It was about a few months later that it all came out. She later killed herself when she was older because of what he did to her through all of her childhood. And she was my best friend and it was her father and I who found her after she killed herself.

    When you claim that when people feel guilt or ashamed after they have been raped they therefore cannot be truly innocent and therefore, they somehow share responsibility or are complicit, you further perpetuate the pain that my sad friend lived through and what people like Chimpkin have managed to survive through. I don't think you quite understand the pain and horror of having your rights over your own body taken from you and being forced to have sex or be touched by someone you don't want touching you. I don't think you quite recognise what kind of psychological damage that does to someone. This is worsened when rape victims orgasm, not because they are enjoying the sex, but because their body will simply react outside of their control.. so they live with the added guilt and betrayal from their own body, not to mention the stares and questions from individuals who believe like you do, who will query what they had done, as though being raped is something that was in their control.

    So when I read comments like this from you, it scares me. Because you actually believe that not all rape is rape. You actually believe that a child trusting a stranger or approaching a stranger calling to them is somehow responsible for their own rape or abuse, thereby lessening the responsibility of the perpetrator to not commit such a crime.. As you though you are saying 'well you got in the car, so it's partly your own fault and own doing'.

    You cannot seem to quite grasp that that child getting in that car does not lessen the child's innocence, just as a woman who is raped by her spouse/partner or friend, even when they are sleeping together, does not lessen her innocence. No does mean no, no matter what the situation is.

    There is a link, provided by adoucette, which makes it very simple. It's central message is simply "Don't rape people". In other words, it is not for the victim to not be raped. It is for the rapist to not rape, no matter what. It means that a rapist is not less guilty because the child got into their car or because the victim is his/her spouse.

    One cannot prevent being raped because no one can know what exactly can set off a rapist. It can be anything or nothing at all. Rape is not about attraction but about power and the desire to deny someone power over their own bodies. When you figure out what combination exists that will prevent a woman from being raped no matter what, then let us know. Because at the moment, no one knows. Short of never ever being in the company of another person from birth to death, one can never know. I can wear a tent when I have to go in public, just in case, carry a gun or knife on me at all times, just in case, never speak to strangers or any men aside from my spouse or partner, just in case and one night I could get into bed and my spouse can over-power me and rape me.
     
    Bells, Nov 26, 2011
    #122

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  5. chimpkin

    chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Mine never hit me in front of my mom.
    And he only started using me when mom went back to work...
    I've been...going somewhat insane lately recalling what he did...
    But this grief has to have a bottom.

    I'm very sorry you lost your friend, bells.
     
    chimpkin, Nov 26, 2011
    #123

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  7. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

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    All victims of crime could have done something differently to avoid a given crime. A rape victim could have worn less sexy clothes if the rapist were into sexy clothes. She could have worn more sexy clothes if the rapist were into plain clothes. She could have been less aggressive in social situations if he was into aggressive women; she could have been more aggressive in social situations if he was into passive women.

    None of that places any of the fault on the victim.

    From your logic, it would apparently be our fault that that asteroid hit Earth.
     
    billvon, Nov 26, 2011
    #124
  8. Pineal

    Pineal Banned Banned

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    Those are pretty rare behaviors. Most rapes are not happening in situations like this. The question for me is do you think most women who are raped are

    complicit     in their rapes.

    This was the term used by Wynn on a couple of occasions.

    It seems to me in pretty much any rape, or burglary or theft, one could have done something to make the crime less likely.

    Does this 'could have' always imply complicity?

    I really don't think so.

    But having a Rolex at all is OK? How about an expensive car? Can you always be sure you will not break down in the wrong place? Is owning an expensive car complicit in your carjacking if you get carjacked? If, for example, you drove that expensive car out of the suburbs?
     
    Pineal, Nov 26, 2011
    #125
  9. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know the statistics, and cases of rape are different.

    In many cases, it is the woman who initiates physical violence, and things escalate from there.


    "Marc has a saying when he does expert witness work in court cases. "This is the worst thing you've ever seen, it is not, however, the worst thing I've ever seen." He has to explain this to people because quite often what people are seeing is indeed terrible, but it could have been worse. But until you have seen worse, the idea that it could still go downhill seems almost impossible.

    Unfortunately, rape is one of those examples. Before a woman is sexually assaulted, her emotions, pride and anger seem overwhelmingly important. Enough to to blind her to the fact that she's standing on the railroad tracks trying to argue with a runaway train about its behavior.

    Never mind her reasons for doing so, that is not a behavior that is conducive to not getting raped.

    Right or Raped?
    We have a basic question that we ask: What would you rather be, right or raped?

    When after the woman replies that she doesn't want to get raped, we reply: Then you better quite trying to "win" and focus more on doing something that will keep you from getting raped.

    In a long list of statements about rape that twists off advocates, this is pretty much the topper. Wow... the outrage, the anger, the barrage of "I HAVE A RIGHT TO....!" and "Why should I be the one who ...?" or "I'm not going to ..." But, our personal favorite "He's the one who's in the wrong ..."

    Wow, they're not only going to try to argue with a run away train, they're going to start defending their right to do so then and there. It doesn't take too much of psychic to guess the outcome if she finds herself alone with a man intent on sexually assaulting her.

    Our advice: Get out of there. Take heed of the quote on the top of the page.

    However, the idea of leaving a situation without "getting in the last word," "giving him a piece of your mind," "showing how mad you are at him", "evening the score," "hurting him for making you angry" or "getting back at him for treating you this way" irritates certain kinds of people.

    In their make up is the need, if not to be right, then at least to always come out of a situation with pride intact. In fact, the idea of leaving isn't so odious to them. But the idea of leaving without having scored a telling blow on the person for emotionally hurting them is unacceptable. As soon as they get that last devastating emotional lash stroke on his psyche then they will leave.

    The exact reason for this behavior can come in many different forms, but for ease of discussion we call it "being right." In short being "right" means they have in some way restored balance, self-image and punished him for his misconduct.

    Unfortunately, this kind of thinking seriously increases your chances of being raped.

    It is literally the equivalent of standing on the train tracks arguing for your 'right' to be there. Furthermore you are going to punish that train for not respecting your rights. You may have the "right" to be there, but the train coming at you doesn't care. And you certainly aren't going to change it's behavior by slapping it.

    /.../

    From purely informal and unscientific interviews that we have done with rape victims we discovered an astonishing trend. In approximately 80% of all the date rapes the woman initiated the physical violence.

    She was the one who hit first.

    To say this finding is controversial is like saying the "Titanic sprung a small leak." Somewhat of a massive understatement comes to mind. However, once we step away from the "blame game" and begin to look at it from a wider perspective, this makes perfect sense. There is no blame or implied condemnation with this finding.

    It is however, as you will see, significant."
    /.../
    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/escape.html



    Yes, n hindsight, we often see many things that we could have done better.



    No. It does imply intentional complicity when the person knew they could have done something to protect themselves and were able to do it, but didn't do it.
    Ignorance of a more suitable, safer action implies effectual complicity.

    It really comes down to making mistakes and how we think and feel about those mistakes and ourselves afterwards.


    Nobody argued that.

    If you display your wealth and believe "I will show them what a superior person I am, they should all feel like dirty mice" then this is not an attittude conducive to harmless, guilt-free interactions with others.
     
    wynn, Nov 26, 2011
    #126
  10. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    With my friend, it had started as her mother slept down the hall. They lived in a very isolated area at the time, she did not have much contact with anyone aside from those living and working on the property.

    I met her after she came to live with her biological father and his wife, who sought therapy for her and treatment, because she was just so damaged. We went to the same school after she moved and she was such a sweet girl but she was also very prone to strange moods. It was only after she told me what had happened to her that things started to make sense. She was a tragedy and to this day, I still blame myself for not having gotten to her place in time and I still blame myself for not having done something more. We still keep in contact, even after I moved interstate. He blames himself as well, because there were so many things we missed in the weeks leading up to her suicide. But to him, he sees it as an end to her chapter, that she had finally found the peace and solace she so desired all her life. The way I see it, she killed herself, but the person who drove her to it is her stepfather. It has been just under 18 or so years now since she passed away and there isn't a day that I don't think of her. And some days I cry and some days I smile because I know she doesn't hurt anymore.

    She ultimately drove me into the career I ended up with, which was dealing mostly with abused women, children and rape victims. And through that, I have come to know a lot more like her and who had suffered just as she did. But I also learned a lot about rape, sexual abuse and most importantly, how each person will react to it differently. The one thing I always used to tell my clients was that it was not their fault. That they were not responsible and whatever they were feeling, was perfectly normal.

    To have anyone make comments and hold beliefs like Wynn has, I mean look at the post she made just above.. "she was the one who hit first".. so that means she is responsible if someone rapes her? That somehow makes her complicit? The terminology used by Wynn is often used by rape apologists, usually rapists who try to make it about the other person than about their act. And that is what disturbs me about her posts. Her belief that because some are angry or feel ashamed or even guilty about what happened to them, which is a normal psychological response to trauma, to Wynn, those victims are no longer real victims but share the responsbility, because as she says, if someone is truly innocent, they would not feel that way. She totally disregards the grief victims feel and the psychological damage they suffer and how their feelings are normal manifestations of such damage and grief. And I think that lack of empathy, that need to blame others, that lack of understanding says more about Wynn than I would probably care to know now.
     
    Bells, Nov 26, 2011
    #127
  11. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    No.

    It is a kind of logic that does seem to be implied in Bell's stance, or at least in how she interprets some people's stance.


    Asteroids move around in space, and sometimes, they collide with other cellestial bodies. This is just how it is.

    The idea that we should be free not to live in fear of an asteroid collision with planet Earth, because asteroids should not collide with planet Earth, is out of touch with reality.


    Although this could be an unresolvable and emotionally heavy issue for people who don't see a philosophical (and practical) alternative to their current ways of thinking, feeling, speaking and acting.
     
    wynn, Nov 26, 2011
    #128
  12. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    No. This is your twisted interpretation of it.


    No. This is your twisted interpretation of it.


    Why don't you actually read what Cifo, Randwolf and myself have said?


    This isn't the courtoom, where you could vehemently insist in your stance no matter what and afford not to listen to other participants.

    This isn't the courtroom, we are not discussing a particular case of crime, there are not two opposing sides here each of which would try to convince the jury.


    This is a discussion.
     
    wynn, Nov 26, 2011
    #129
  13. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    So you think I have twisted or misrepresented when you told Chimpkin she was responsible for being raped as a child? That she played a part in it? How about when you discussed that if a woman dresses in a way that provokes another person, then she is somewhat complicit in her own rape? You stated dressed provocatively, but we know that some rapists will be provoked by a range of things, so to use your twisted logic, anything the woman does that somehow provokes a rapist will mean she is complicit in her rape... Which means women need to either be mind readers or just never associate with any males at all.

    You think I am misrepresenting you and twisting what you say when you determine why or who is truly innocent? Lets look at that one, shall we? Let us analyse how you view innocence:


    Therefore, women, men and children who after being raped who feel anger, greed, lust, hatred, contempt, confusion.. well in the world according to Wynn, they cannot be truly innocent, can they? After all, why should they feel shame if they actually were innocent, right?

    As I linked in the front page, you once tried to apply your logic to a woman who had been raped when she was 4 and stated clearly and openly that she shared the responsibility for what happened to her..

    And apparently, according to you, I am twisting what you are saying? You know, I wish I had to twist what you said to get to this point, because the fact that I am not and you actually believe as you do indicates to me that you do need help. Professional help.
     
    Bells, Nov 26, 2011
    #130
  14. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    This isn't the courtoom, where you could vehemently insist in your stance no matter what and afford not to listen to other participants.

    This isn't the courtroom, we are not discussing a particular case of crime, there are not two opposing sides here each of which would try to convince the jury.

    This is a discussion.


    But since you work as a lawyer, it seems you have a "professional deformation" ...
     
    wynn, Nov 26, 2011
    #131
  15. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    wynn, I understand what you're getting at. You're simply projecting the social status quo on the issue. The problem is, that status quo does not work. Women get raped regardless of what they wear. There is no evidence that women who are less provocatively dressed are less likely to get raped. Women are vulnerable in all countries - where there are nude beaches, where there are topless beaches, where women dress in sarees, where women dress in burkas. Women get raped when they are 2 years old and when they are 80 years old. Women get raped in remote areas and in the middle of crowds. By husbands, family members, friends and by strangers. Drunk or sober. Even our statistics are warped because only about 15% of rapes get reported

    Most important, boys and men also get raped. The only common factor is the decision of the rapist to commit the crime
     
    S.A.M., Nov 26, 2011
    #132
  16. chimpkin

    chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complicit

    If you are victimized...someone has taken away your power to choose.

    You had choice leading up to the actual victimization in some cases. But during the victimization itself, your choice is taken away.
     
    chimpkin, Nov 26, 2011
    #133
  17. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    See this:

    Take Back the Night

    I have personal experience of walking back from the lab at night, be it in India or the US and being accosted by idiots and drunks. What I found most intriguing is that walking alone in the day time in Saudi Arabia is a comparable exercise


    SlutWalk
     
    S.A.M., Nov 26, 2011
    #134
  18. chimpkin

    chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    I...spend a lot of time online working on my emotional garbage. As part of this I've managed to talk to and befriend others doing the same thing. And read stories. Lots of stories.
    Out of the hundreds...I think one person did not feel at fault for getting abused.
    She was asking if there was something wrong with her for not feeling at fault. Other forum members were like "No! that's great!"
     
    chimpkin, Nov 26, 2011
    #135
  19. Cowboy

    Cowboy My Aim Is True Valued Senior Member

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    If the "victim" is responsible in some way for the "crime", I think it would be rational to explore (philosophically speaking) whether or not the crime should truly be a crime. To me, when you talk about crime and victims, it means the victim didn't do anything to warrant that crime.

    Instead of talking about responsibility of victims, it might be better to speak in terms of stupidity. Someone who leaves his or her car unlocked isn't responsible for it being stolen, but it IS a stupid thing to do. Same goes for the woman who gets raped while walking through a dark alley. She's certainly not responsible for the crime, but her behavior displayed an obvious lack of situational awareness and common sense.
     
    Cowboy, Nov 26, 2011
    #136
  20. Asguard

    Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Bells everyone blames themselves for "missing the signs" but it isn't your fault, my standed responce is that suicide is no ones fault but in this case thats not true. however its not your fault, its not her dad's fault and its not her fault
     
    Asguard, Nov 26, 2011
    #137
  21. chimpkin

    chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Basically.
    Pretty much.
    Although...If a guy got attacked and raped because he walked down a dark alley...would you think him precisely as foolish as her?

    Not requiring an answer, just something to consider.
     
    chimpkin, Nov 26, 2011
    #138
  22. Asguard

    Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Possibly not but there are a lot of things women can get away with that would get there head beaten in or worse if it was a guy, sadly gender does make a difference at times
     
    Asguard, Nov 26, 2011
    #139
  23. chimpkin

    chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Guys get beaten up... women get raped? (not in specific, in general, ok?)
    Both are acts of domination, power trips.
     
    chimpkin, Nov 26, 2011
    #140
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