Why is it taboo to discuss the responsibility of victims?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wynn, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member


    As strange as it may seem, the sanest option is to take responsibility that we live, that we were born.

    We live in this world, we exist. This fact alone presents us with a responsibility. Which is why it seems fitting that we would only cultivate such intentions and actions that are harmless to ourselves and others.

    We may or may not be able to prevent a crime committed against ourselves and others, but whether we are complicit in this crime and how well we deal with it afterwards: surely this is within the scope of our abilities.
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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Bells i thought you didn't belive in treatment for.personality disorders?
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  5. Bells Staff Member

    Blame you?


    I think you need professional help.

    It has been explained to you in explicit terms. That you cannot understand or grasp it is not my concern but yours. When someone is humiliated, hurt, violated and had their rights taken from them, as is the case with rape and sexual abuse, it is normal that the victim will often find themselves blaming themselves or hating themselves or feeling ashamed. The damage is psychological. And has been witnessed in countless of abuse and rape cases. It does not mean that the child or rape victim is somehow responsible. Nor that they are not innocent. Quite the contrary.

    Some reading on the matter. However since you seem to lack empathy and understanding and prefer to blame the victim, I am not sure it will actually sink in.




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  7. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    No. You are just securing a particular taboo.

    I would think that if you would really be so morally superior as you imply to be, then you would be able to analyze taboos.
  8. Bells Staff Member

    Most cannot be cured, but I do think that one should seek professional help regardless. Why do you think I don't believe in treatment for personality disorders?
  9. Bells Staff Member

    Securing a taboo?

    So you think not blaming the victim is a taboo?

    Get some help, Signal.
  10. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

  11. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    It is, apparently, taboo to analyze notions of innocence.

    Oh well.

    You are, of course, morally superior and all that.
  12. Bells Staff Member

    Yes I was looking at that site the other day. It's very good and very basic and to the point, with many journal articles dealing specifically with the issue as well.
  13. Bells Staff Member

    We can analyse "notions of innocence" all you like. But you cannot seem to grasp or understand the very simple fact that there are true victims in a crime and your claim that even children are somehow complicit or not "innocent" shows a complete lack of understanding and empathy on your part.

    It is not the responsibility of the victim to not be raped, just as it is not the responsibility of the child to not be raped or sexually abused. It is the sole responsibility of the rapist and the abuser to not rape and not abuse. When you come to understand that very important underlying point, then we can discuss it.

    In the meantime, get some help. Because I do think you need it. And I do not mean that maliciously but because you have expressed some views and beliefs that are harmful to yourself and possibly to others.
  14. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    And you just keep on misrepresenting ...
  15. Bells Staff Member

    Ah denial and blaming others.

    Okay. I'll bite.

    Do you think children who are raped or sexually abused and do you think rape victims in general are completely innocent and should not be made to feel responsible for what was done to them by others and for what was completely outside of their control?
  16. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Note first that this is an abstract discussion of the topic,
    not a counselling session for victims.

    How one would go about counseling a victim is an entirely different matter.


    There are essentially only four mental and physical states that make innoncence possible: goodwill, compassion, appreciation and equanimity.

    Anger, greed, lust, hatred, contempt, confusion are not conducive to innocence.
  17. Bells Staff Member

    Then believe me, I have not misrepresented you.

    Seek help.
  18. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member


    "There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four?
    There are questions that should be answered categorically [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that].
    There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining or redefining the terms].
    There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question.
    There are questions that should be put aside.
    These are the four ways of answering questions."

    Above, I have given you an analytical/qualified answer.
    I do not think your question can be answered with a Yes or No.
  19. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Perhaps because they believe Signal is a moron? Just a guess...

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  20. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

    But she would not be at fault.
    In any of the above.
    She may have done something supremely foolish, yeah, especially depending on that dark alley.
    That doesn't take responsibility off the perpetrator.

    My experience is when you lock the car they break the window, anyway.
    My old apartment got broken into. I locked the door, they kicked it in.
    Again, you take good precautions, it only reduces risk.
    One guy I knew at my old job had been carjacked three times. His fault for owning a riced-up street-racer?

    I honestly think victim blame is wanting to deny one's own vulnerability to the random unpredictability of violence. So the blamer thinks.." Well, I wouldn't be that dumb/ naive/ gullible / unaware / bad / evil/ loaded with bad karma/ etc..." and so is reassured it would not happen to them.
    False reassurance, but totally understandable to want.

    From : http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/selfblameresearch.html
  21. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Well, you are somewhat responsible. You did ask the question, didn't you?
  22. Bells Staff Member


    You do not think it is possible to answer 'no' to a question about whether a child is responsible for being raped by an adult? You do not think it is possible to say 'no' to a question whether an adult is responsible for being raped? It defies belief that you would deem a 4 year old complicit and responsible for being raped.

    And why is that? Ah yes, you gave your answer above. Because to you, if someone reacts with anger to the horrid trauma inflicted on them, if they are confused, if they feel contempt, then they cannot be innocent. And let me guess, if they 'cum' they are also not innocent? To you, if a person is a victim of crime, then they must be weaping, be good, be appreciative then they can be deemed innocent.

    It's astounding. You either have never suffered any trauma at all in your life, in that you live in a bubble, you view everything in black and white and have little to no understanding of just how people react to personal trauma. Or you don't care and are selfish and have no ability to show understanding and empathy.

    I am not kidding Signal. Seek professional help and get it soon.
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Tempting as the prospect is to discuss the culpability of Americans in 9/11 and Jews in the holocaust, I'll skip it for the time being and focus on rape

    There are two separate issues here:

    1. Reducing the risk of crime
    2. Complicity in the crime

    The first refers to actions taken which make it less likely for you to become a victim of ANY crime. e.g. walking alone on dark streets at night would be a no no

    The second refers to being actively complicit in the crime - like wearing a thong and going in front of a man.

    Since nudity is inherently provocative any sign of nudity can be considered an incitement to sexual assault

    Don’t dress like a slut: Toronto cop

    Clearly, the law supports this premise that any woman who behaves in a sluttish manner is "asking for it"

    Rape Victim Was “Inviting” Sexual Assault With Provocative Dress, Flirting

    So, if a girl was fully dressed and behaved in a retiring, modest, circumspect manner and preferably stayed home, she is less likely to get raped? Is that right?

    [insert gratuitous picture of several American soldiers gang raping a fully dressed Arab woman in her home]

    Apparently not.

    Women just don't learn, in fact, in Saudi Arabia, where the rape victim is given lashes for her complicity in her own rape [and the rapist given a death sentence, btw] women still get raped. So clearly, women are not doing enough to keep themselves from getting raped.

    What more should they do?

    Nine who admitted raping 10-year-old released by Australian judge: In her ruling, Judge Sarah Bradley told them that the victim "was not forced and probably agreed to have sex with all of you".

    Right, so its an issue of consent - all they have to do is just say NO.

    So why not start by saying NO to the notion that women are responsible for the poor self restraint shown by men?

    We can start here: with this inanimate mermaid who is forced into a bikini, because her boobs are provocative to men. Rest assured, if they could, some men would rape her too

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