Why is it taboo to discuss the responsibility of victims?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wynn, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    It is relatively easy to discuss risk assessment in rational terms until you have been a victim.

    The statistics look a lot different from that side of the fence even if the figures appear rather miniscule to others.

    Until you have experienced a thing, you cannot truly know of it, IMO.

    I was never raped but I did experience what is termed 'sexual interference'. It took me a long time to learn to trust anyone of the male gender and made it very hard for me to make friends of either gender.

    Something inside you just curls up and goes into defensive mode after your trust and/or your person has been violated.
     
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  3. Sapientivore Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah, but it's by no means impossible to get out of defensive mode.
     
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  5. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    True.

    I'm moderately well adjusted by now.

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    For some reason, nobody messes with me, lol....

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    The best defense is a strong offense.
     
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  7. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Accepting that human weakness means we are all vulnerable to being utterly dehumanized...is something that even non-victims erect mental defenses against.

    That's why society blames a rape victim, really...it's too terrifying to admit the truth-anyone can be violated, at any time, for a reason known only to the perpetrator, regardless of the fight they put up or don't or what precautions they take.

    So one can constantly prepare, or one can become a risk junkie so as to get the inevitable over with... or fall somewhere in-between...a whole spectrum of responses.
    No guarantees except death at the end of it all.

    Nobody messes with me now either, Sche.
    *blink*
    People generally leave crazies alone...
     
  8. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    @SAM --

    So women shouldn't ever decide to stay home with family and friends? After all, women are more likely to be raped in their own home than outdoors, and most rapes are done by close friends or family. Damn, I guess life is going to be lonely for everyone.
     
  9. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Well, you know, if you're really serious about not getting raped, you'd better stay barricaded in your room at all times, of course.
    Although I suppose you could use protective equipment...

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    Just make sure they can't get the key or an angle-grinder.
    But of course that only protects two orifices...better protect the third one...

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    I mean...women have a responsibility not to make themselves into victims, right?
     
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Good imagery.

    Roundup: Women - and in fact no one, really - is culpable for their own physical assault, extreme circumstances omitting (such as physical provocation with violence, culminating in self-defence).

    There are steps any person might take to protect themselves from violence - all of which are of varying effectiveness and insult to personality, with the ultimate dehumanization probably being complete segregation - none of which excuse the above.

    Done.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Right, its kind of a conundrum taking on the responsibility of your own abuse

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  12. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Whatever kind of trauma you fear, you are far more likely to experience it as a consequence of riding a motorcycle than as a consquence of living among human beings. As an adult I've never been so much as hit hard by another human, but in thirteen years of riding motorcycles I had two crashes with serious injuries. That's why I hung up my helmet. I didn't want to spent the next thirteen years looking over my shoulder wondering whether the next time I went down there would be a semi behind me.
    You still don't understand risk analysis and management. Not every risk can be avoided or mitigated. The point is to identify the ones that can be, and do your best.

    We might all be killed by a crashing asteroid. But just in case we aren't, which is a very high probability, why not protect ourselves against being infected by poliomyelitis and being crushed by a poorly constructed building in a snowstorm?

    Very few grandmas are going to be raped by their sixteen-year-old punk grandsons. So they should wear their seat belts and wash their vegetables.
    That's why bereaved people should never be allowed to dictate policy. Bereavement makes people angry, vengeful and irrational.
     
  13. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    You lost me Fraggle.

    How are you working bereavement into a conversation about victims of sexual assault and related risk assessment to avoid same?

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  14. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Some people are capable of remaining rational despite their experiences, and likewise some people lack rationality, and also lack experience. It's more down to the person.
     
  15. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Again, failure to compute.
    You've never had the fun experience of being treated as an object by another human being.

    When I wrecked my first car I croggled my arm,laid my forehead open to the bone ( thankya, nice plastic surgeon-lady ), nearly bit the front part of my tongue off, tore the muscle off of my left collarbone in a strip-the ding is still there.
    My arm's still crooked, too...the metal parts seem to be grown over now, I can't set my thumbnail in the slot of the flathead screw that's in there anymore.

    That was...hmm...ouchy.
    Getting raped is worse. It's personal and utterly dehumanizing. It's an assault on your self, in a way a serious car wreck is not.
     
  16. birch Valued Senior Member

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    i lol'd
     
  17. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    exactly. some people, people who tend to be unempathetic, don't understand that rape like all interactions of a personal nature are an energy exchange. a rapist is 'using' their victim to force their sludge onto the victim while taking their innocence. the perp is not affected negatively but in essence is stealing. this is why the victim feels tainted, dirty, shameful etc because they are dealing with this poison they have been inflicted with.

    rapists don't care about mutually beneficial exchanges, it's about using the other.

    wynn really is an idiot or has no life experience. one not even be raped to understand this as one can just imagine how horrid this is.

    it's the most personal violation. it affects the seat/heart of who you are as a person/identity and the hell is not over just with the act itself. it's like being infected with a virus or disease and it may take years for it to be cleansed and to be healed. sex is extremely intimate, actually THE most intimate exchange/act you can do with another, even though many in society treat it as otherwise or pretend it isn't. then with rape, it's very demonic and evil is the only term to best describe it because of the ill intentions behind it.

    when someone can destroy you or affect you so negatively on the most personal level of who you are, that's a crime where the damage is not 'physically' apparent oftentimes but is absolutely real. that is one of the reasons why rapists do such things and rapists target those they know often as most don't care. it is like a private hell one is forced into.

    people often think hurt is just physical as in broken limbs etc when that is furthest from the truth. this lack of insight into our humanity and blindspot is taken advantage of by perpetrators like this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2011
  18. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    you couldn't be more wrong. this 'blame the victim' is much more prevalent in actuality even with the outward lip service otherwise which is why it's so horrible.

    people tend to be suspicious of the victim, sorry for the perpetrator for being tempted, think the victim inticed them etc. all this because nature tends to be predatorial so it's the minority who truly is empathetic. there is a truly cruel and sick twist as victims of sexual abuse are often seen as filthy or deserving for having been the victim of another's lasciviousness and that their own sexuality is to blame. usually it's people who have not had the experience or people who are so disgusted/ashamed that they also blame the victim for being a victim since it's easier, which is unhealthy and degenerate when in actuality it was the rapist who was unhealthy and degenerate. it's completely unfair, even diabolical.

    the problem is until society stops being wishywashy and hypocritical about ethics, blaming the victim will always be the real undercurrent which makes it even harder for victims to cope as they already feel responsible for something they shouldn't.

    and most victims of the most horrible sexual abuse which tends to be ongoing which makes it even worse as well as them knowing you personally tend to be younger people such as children and teenagers. this is because they have less power, are more vulnerable and are generally dependent in some way to the known perp.

    it is much easier to cope with a rape or assault from a stranger than with someone that knows you and has groomed you as the violation even takes on deeper implications and damage. it is personal terrorism with the perp playing mind games, training you to be self-defeating and obscuring boundaries and to feel responsible or 'dirty' that you deserved it. their dirt they burdened you to carry.

    this has the effect of the person unconsciously giving off these signals which also compounds the sense of unconscious or subtle or even overt blame from others onto the victim because that is what others only 'see' on the superficial level. this is what the perpetrator wanted.

    it's quite frigging simple: in the metaphysical world (heh), if a predator knifes your face and causes an ugly wound. people (because most are stupid or uncaring or evil themselves) will automatically blame the victim. after all, the victim is the one who has the ugly wound, not the perpetrator. can't see anything on them as thier malevolence is a hidden weapon and not a wound. the victim is the one where they smell the blood on them and it incites them to blame them further, furthering the damage and deepening the wound. adding further insult to injury is victims tend to attract, even unconsciously, no matter what they do, other perverts. this is because perverts and other predators can sense that one has been a victim before so they can see or sense the damage and are opportunistic. it is so sick that these types of people can view the victim as something that is rightfully theirs and may even view the victim's lack of interest or even disgust/repulsion and especially fear as enticing and seductive. this is because perverts are turned on by helplessness or lack of power in others to the point of delusion that the other wants to give them power by giving up power. they disregard the person's feelings and only focus on the point of vulnerability as if it's a willing invitation because that vulnerabilty has been stripped of it's defenses. hideous and disgusting but true. this occurs on a subterranean level but victims know this while others cannot see it or are oblivious to it's goings on. why would they? they aren't being targeted.

    as backward as it is, that's the universe we live in. it takes a person who truly cares about the truth to look further for it.

    this is a form of disassociation. some people pass out if they are in extreme pain as a defense mechanism or some can disassociate mentally/emotionally which is another defense mechanism but these are tricky because it doesn't always occur and one cannot always do this or be prepared to do this. i mean, people are not trained to disassociate seriously and this is very hard to do. as well, children and young people didn't have a chance. pul-leeze..

    the real truth right there.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2011
  19. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    people who have never experienced violation like this or worse don't realize how one never feels safe afterward. it's a sense of being stripped of your natural defenses but can't be quantified but it's gone. people take their sense of feeling personally empowered and defenses for granted because they assume everyone has that. it tend to make them insensitive or unaware of others who don't. this 'defenses' are real and facilitates the ability to drive their life in the direction they want whereas those who have been stripped of these natural defenses is like a tornado blowing through your being, upsetting it's balance to have personal empowerment. the worst does not stop there (depending upon level of violation and how deep it is). the predator forms an internal link like a parasite that feeds off of you for power. they basically drain you, even when physically apart. basically, they become the driving force of your destiny until you can root them out of your system which is very difficult because it's not as easy as when you are dealing with physical objects to manipulate. one way it manifests is that it is harder or impossible to attract the type of good people or people that naturally would be for you that you would have if you had been your original and natural self before this perverted rearrangement/debacle occured. this is because people are attracted to those who are similar meaning healthy people are attracted to other healthy people. when you are damaged, it is as if you are no longer on their radar but instead attract exactly what you don't want or need and throws your life off course. it is very sad. it's like your life has been stolen and on the outside looking in through an invisible shield.

    how this essentially holds up your life is that your energies will be spent on identifying and repairing whereas if you had not had the experience, your energies could have been used to basically live your life in more normal terms working toward your natural objectives. this is a process that takes time as first you have to be aware if there is a problem at all. most victims don't initially realize the extent of the issue as it only can be identified by noticing negative patterns or attracting them. these are dealt with one by one and again, that takes time to show itself and then find ways to change them. this is extremely difficult to do when dealing with emotional and psychological issues that affect one's life. this is because we are taught that you just suck it up and go on but that does not always work. if you are unbalanced and not the one emotionally and psychologically in the driver's seat of your life but only superificially think you are, it can take a long time to dig deep into yourself and identify where you are out of control as well as the damage. again, the physical world is much easier to deal with as it's so visible. i can't think of a more sneaky type of attack as a psychological/emotional one as it has the result of making the victim appear as if they are consciously doing these things to themselves or wanting them.

    there are some horrendously manipulative people with that type of ability they use unfairly. again, this depends upon the level of violation as abuse/exploitation has degrees.

    people assume, because things are relatively okay in their world so know no different, that conscious choices are all that is needed to make your life when life is far more complicated than that. the metaphysical is very real and our subtle emotions/psyche/state and sense of well-being are crucial as a foundation. when this is out of wack, it doesn't matter what you do on the physical plane as endless bad luck just seems to manifest or attract. until one is cleansed, then healed and can then personally build back positive empowerment to get their life back on track, it is not possible. and if it takes a long time, by then many positive experiences/relationships/dreams you could have had or fulfilled are long past possible. this is how one's life can be stolen.

    personal violations that are extreme result in an insidious anxiety but that's just an initial sign of what is taking place.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2011
  20. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    You mean like this? If she hadn't been drinking, should could have said no, so then she wouldn't have gotten raped

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  21. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Has this thread not gone on long enough? In what way is it possible that there exists those who do not quite comprehend the utter logical, social and moral fact that their accusation of moral responsibility in the victim is completely groundless, besides being offensive? The latter might be of debatable importance, but for God's sake: enough, already. Shut the thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  22. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    i guess i should clarify what i meant in context. i didn't mean the physical was literally easier to deal with as there are horrendous afflictions or accidents of a physical nature which will affect one's quality of life even emotionally and mentally but that psychological/emotional predation is real but it's not visible.
     
  23. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    How is it rape when she says yes?
     

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