Why is electrostatic force neglected in cosmical range?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by simple-mind, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. simple-mind Registered Member

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    Gravitational and electrostatic (Coulomb) force have the same dependency on distance (1 / r^2), but I never heard of Coulomb force to be considered in the context of the expanding universe. For ionized condensed matter, the Coulomb forces are many order of magnitudes stronger than gravitation.

    An example: For two positively ionized hydrogen atoms, the ratio of gravitational and Coulomb force would be 8.08 * 10^-37 (if I did my calculation right, see attachment). That means, if in two galaxies one out of 10^36 atoms is positively ionized, the repellent Coulomb force matches the attracting gravitational force.

    I could think of a couple of ways an asymmetric distribution of charged particles has been created in big bang. And an asymmetry of 1 : 10^36 seems possible to me still now, even if a big part of uneven distribution will have been erased by now.

    Depending on the spacial distribution of surplus electical charge, effects like accelerating expansion of parts of the universe could possibly be explained. Maybe dark matter or energy could be seen in a different light (*g*).

    Here are my calculations:
     
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  3. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    A related effect is connected to third most abundant atom of the universe, oxygen. The oxygen atom can stably exist all the way to oxide, which is O-2. This anion is a stable, in spite of excess negative charge, because the magnetic addition within the completed octet of electrons compensates for the charge repulsion of two extra electrons. This stability of oxide is why most materials oxidize by donating electrons to oxygen. The result is a universal wide net atomic charge imbalance. For example, upon exposure to oxygen metallic iron ends up as Fe+2 or Fe+3 due to oxygen. There is energy given off by creating this atomic charge imbalance. The earth's metallic iron core and the atmospheric oxygen set a global oxidation potential.

    One of the important oxidation products is between the most abundant atom of the universe or hydrogen, and number three atom or oxygen, to form H2O (water). Water is the most abundant molecule in the universe. It is a polarized molecule.

    In storm clouds, like thunder clouds, the movement of water due to updrafts and downdrafts, can cause charge separation within the cloud with positive charge accumulating high within the cloud and negative accumulating lower in the cloud. The oxygen is able to stabilize the excess negative charge since it can hold up to two extra electrons more than its protons. The potential within this separation is considerable as reflected by billion volt lightning discharges at enormous amperage.
     
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  5. simple-mind Registered Member

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    Thank you for these interesting thoughts, wellwisher.
    My point is not about hydrogen but about long ranging forces between large cosmical structures due to slight inhomogenities of electrical charge. This applies to atoms and molecules as well as to plasma or even energetically higher forms of matter.
     
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  7. Janus58 Valued Senior Member

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    Because the electrostatic force does have the same dependency on distance as gravity, it cannot be a candidate for driving universal expansion. If a galaxy had enough residual charge to overcome it's gravitational attraction to another galaxy, it would also have enough to overcome its own tendency to hold together. Universal expansion only shows up when you get beyond the scale of galaxy clusters, anything smaller than that is still gravitational bound together and doesn't expand with the universe. When looking for the culprit causing the acceleration of the expansion of the Universe, you need to look for something that is weaker than gravity over short ranges but overcomes it over huge ranges.
     
  8. simple-mind Registered Member

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    This is really convincing, thank you, Janus58.
     
  9. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    It plays a big role in formation of star systems from dust, but after that gravity takes over. It's also called "sticky carbon coatings".
     
  10. Mauricio Pimiento Banned Banned

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    This is called the coulomb force which have the same dependency upon the distance it meets lightly with the gravitational force,such forces in the electromagnetic waves can be used in the human body for any therapy which secure the life of the patients.
     
  11. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    One consideration is force transparency. If we have a planet like earth, mass is able to act via gravity, as though the bulk mass is transparent to itself. This allows a large accumulative effect. With charge, many materials tend to be insulators and therefore are opaque. For example, a charge behind a wall may not be seen, but mass behind the same wall is still being compounded with the mass of the wall.

    In the case of a cloud on earth, the dipoles within water, due to oxygen, can act more transparently and accumulatively. This not only allows the formation of clouds but it can also scale up into huge hurricane vortexes. With water the most abundant molecule of the universe water plays a significant role in using EM force to get sparse materials to organize and accumulate.

    Consider a cloud of water. The gravity between water molecules is transparent but quite small compared to the EM forces within the cloud, which can organize throughout the cloud. However, if we add the gravity of the earth and its impact on the atmosphere, this creates gravitational pressure, which amplifies the impact of the water dipoles; higher pressure, created by gravity, allows condensation to occur easier since water will condense easier at higher pressure.

    Say we have water vapor becoming liquid water quickly, due to condensation in a gravity enhanced cloud. Since we are losing water vapor from vapor space, this lowers the partial pressure and pulls a vacuum. This results in the movement of vapor from neighboring higher to lower pressure, with the bulk gravity regulating the pressure range. This convection can amplify the EM force, turnover. I see them working as team until transparency issues hand over the task to gravity.
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Whether something is a conductor or an insulator depends only on how free charges are to move in the material. The "screening" of electromagnetic fields by conductors, as in a Faraday cage, for example, is due to charges on the conductor being free to move around to negate the effect of an external field inside the conductor.

    It is misleading to talk of "transparency". Materials are as "transparent" to electric and magnetic fields as they are to gravity. The difference in observed behaviour comes in the main because electric charges come in two flavours (positive and negative), whereas mass has only one type.
     

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