Why does the West tolerate Israeli crimes?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by RedStar, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

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    Depending on assignment, they served as my military sidearms.
     
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  3. Gremmie "Happiness is a warm gun" Valued Senior Member

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    May I ask which military you served in?

    I know I was never issued any of those sidearms, when I was in the service.


    ETA:

    The Beretta was issued during my days, but, I was issued a Colt model 1911 acp. Yeah, I'm old.
     
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  5. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    the only picture that comes up to my mind is this:

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  7. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    Gremmie

    Your Colt is a much better gun in all respects, IMHO. I had one in Nam, best pistol ever, as far as stopping power, ease of maintenance and ease of shooting accurately. Add a Thompson and you were ready for anything except sniping. Give me the old, slab sided machine any day, the only mod I would like to see would be a DA trigger group(first round only)and thumb decock, but I haven't found one yet.

    Grumpy

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  8. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    the whole drive them into the see thing is a myth. the crux of the issue is that Israel creation was a violation of the palestinian self determination. also Israel doesn't have the right to exist. no country does. if you actually stop and think about you'd realize just how fucked up the concept is. I'm really tired of people repeating that tired peace of bullshit propaganda. I understand why you feel Israel is the victim of constant agression by the arab countries around but the history of the conflict is far more complicated than you make out to be. it not this cut and dry black and white things is murky and a fuck ton of shades of grey. their are true complete innocents and no one is a good guy.
     
  9. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Its not a myth: DEIR GHASSANA, West Bank, Jan. 27 — It is not hard to find Palestinians here who see the victory of Hamas as the triumph of resistance and of the group's longstanding vow to drive Israel into the sea.http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/28/international/middleeast/28voices.html?_r=1


    Hamas Principles
    The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

    "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

    "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

    "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

    http://mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

    You are so biased against Israel that you cannot see that they are actually responding to a genuine threat. And there is historical precedence of Palestinians wanting to destroy Jews:


    Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini (Arabic: محمد أمين الحسيني‎, Muhammad Amin al-Husayni;[1] born c. 1897;[2][3] died 4 July 1974) was a Palestinian Arab nationalist and Muslim leader in the Mandatory Palestine.

    During World War II he actively collaborated with both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, meeting Adolf Hitler personally and asking him to back Arab independence. He requested, as part of the Pan-Arab struggle, Hitler's support to oppose the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish national home. He was promised the leadership of the Arabs after German troops had driven out the British. He helped recruit Muslims for the Waffen-SS. At war's end, he came under French protection, and managed to slip away to Cairo to avoid eventual prosecution.
    In the lead-up to the 1948 Palestine War, Husseini opposed both the 1947 UN Partition Plan and King Abdullah's designs to annex the Arab part of British Mandatory Palestine to Jordan, and, failing to gain command of the 'Arab rescue army' (jaysh al-inqadh al-'arabi) formed under the aegis of the Arab League, formed his own militia, al-jihad al-muqaddas. In September 1948, he participated in establishment of All-Palestine Government. Seated in Egyptian ruled Gaza, this government won a limited recognition of Arab states, but was eventually dissolved by Gamal Nasser in 1959. After the war and subsequent Palestinian exodus, his claims to leadership, wholly discredited, left him eventually sidelined by the Palestine Liberation Organization, and he lost most of his residual political influence. He died in Beirut, Lebanon, in July 1974. Husseini was and remains a highly controversial figure. Historians dispute whether his fierce opposition to Zionism was grounded in nationalism or antisemitism or a combination of both.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni


    So even though I don't agree with all of Israeli actions I perfectly understand their hyper-vigilance. The do have enemies who would like to decimate their populations.
     
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Curious. As an avowed communist, why are you shilling for the rights of a theocracy to own nuclear weapons?
     
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Enough lies, pj. We have indeed been over this and the Israelis had little of value at the start of the war. Whatever they gained during it is a different question. Your supposition that the British armed Israel prior to leaving has been thoroughly invalidated. I'm certain you'll be back with more misunderstanding, deliberate or otherwise.
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Actually there was a considerable amount of hate for the Jews in Palestine, and broadcasts by neighbouring Arab governments indicated that such a massacre would indeed take place. There are other examples of attitudes toward Jewish civilians at that time.

    What I'm really interested in is this new apparent miscomprehensio, however:

    OK, so Palestinians have a right to self-determination. No argument there.

    So...Palestinians have a right to self-determination, which much necessarily include the possibility of nationhood...but no country has a right to exist, and particularly not Israel. Is Palestine an exception? Are there other exceptions you can think of?

    Interesting. Do you have examples? From both sides?
     
  13. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    pjdude1219

    Since 1948 when the world came together to form a Jewish homeland it has been under attack by it's neighbors, many of whom joined the Nazi cause to exterminate Jews during WW2. This is historical fact. Israel has made no attempts to invade it's neighbors but that cannot be said of Jordan, Syria, Egypt or Iran. If the Arabic countries stopped their aggression there would be no conflict in the area(problems yes, open warfare and terrorism no). Israel is not the aggressor here.

    Personally, I abhor religions and the violence they foment based on superstitious non-sense. The people of Israel are the same people as in the Arabic countries around them, the only real difference is the difference in religious belief and the attempts by adherents of one to kill all the others of a different belief. How stupid is that?

    While Israel is not perfectly behaved as a country, the behavior of the Arabic countries has been and continues to be barbaric, there is no comparison. And if you think that it is appropriate to point fingers at Israel while ignoring the context of the barbarism they live in the middle of, you are a fool and a tool.

    There was not then, nor has there ever been a country called Palestine. When Israel was formed it made no attempt to drive anyone out, they "self-deported" themselves based on Syrian propaganda, most having never even seen an Israeli soldier! There are almost as many "Palestinian people" in Israel today as there are Jewish ones. And, while the conflict and bombings have forced Israel to try to control those things through apartheid techniques, it is the fault of the people who practice such barbarism that makes it necessary. Peace has been shown to be possible, Sadat showed that. But the Arabs don't want peace, they want to complete the work the Nazis started, as their actions since 1948 show conclusively.

    Grumpy

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  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    @Grumpy

    Iran has never invaded Israel.
     
  15. RedStar The Comrade! Registered Senior Member

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    As a balance against Israeli aggression. Same reason some communists still defend Korea DPR: we abhor the regime, but we hate American imperialism more.

    The "world" did not come together to do jack shit. European colonial powers did, and it was to get rid of the Jews.
    By the mere act of occupation, they are the primary aggressor. Response to occupation is a secondary move.

    You sound like you probably just hate Arabs and Muslims.

    Correct. The Palestinian people never had their own state because of the imperialism of the Ottomans and the British. There was a Palestinian identity, however.
    Your history is bullshit
     
  16. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    its a myth and it proven so consistently. probably the best proof. is the palestinians never really orginized into a coherent group for any sort of combat intill well after ISrael's crimes against them. the whole drive into the see thing is a myth.



    http://www.peaceandpalestine.com/intoseamyth
     
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    whci is why they were using later are british tech than their enemies. no I'm not the one one. lying geoff. it hasn't been invalidated you refuse to give up the ISraeli creation narrative.
     
  18. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    really it historical fact? than we can no one find a shred of evidence that they fought with the axis powers as a group? the fact that the entirety of arab working with the nazis was from territories occupied by german enemies bears no cideration. hell even the zionists of palestine tried collaborating with the nazis. every occupied people ally with the enemy of their occupier.
    I see you like to consume ISrael propaganda. by the time the arab nations got involved ISrael had already invaded the nascent palestinian state preventing it from forming. in fact that was reason the arab nations got involved ISrael's aggression


    one's own misdeeds aren't a reason to ignore misdeed being done to them.

    true but there was never really a country called Israel till 48, no country called Italy or germany til the late 1800's doesn't mean they didn't exist and in all cases except ISrael's had the right to self determination.
    well yes a lot did just leave as you know CIVILIANS USUALLY DO. and their are documented cased of zionists forces literally driving arabs into the see. jaffa haifa for 2 examples.
    only if you include the west bank and gaza.
    so its the victims of crime are to blame for their crimes committed against them. you do realize in almost no culture you won't be called an asshole for that mentality.
    how is wanting their legally mandated the rights anything the same as nazi genocide campaigns and world domination plans.[/QUOTE]

    everything was peaceful until the zionists showed up saying the wanted to take over and push out the palestinians. its the ISraelis that don't want peace. because peace leads to more interaction between peoples which exactly what ISrael doesn't want.
     
  19. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Your horrid syntax aside - is this 'Michigan mangling', then? - I suggest you check out the Wikipedia entry on the subject. Happy reading.

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  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    as much as I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and as much as I dislike Israel do you think that maybe the reason for that is they don't share a border?
     
  21. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    As a communist, I don't defend the KDPR, because it actually - remarkably - appears to be worse for its proletariat than American imperialism. Why on earth should the most egregiously bad example of communism be defended because they pay lip service to a concept that, by rights, should destroy such a regime?

    Further, supporting reactionary theocracies does not appear to me to be the best way to develop the dialectic. You incorporate all the excesses of reactionary capitalism, and back it with a horrifyingly insidious devotion to reactionary religion. It's technological feudalism. It's actually worse than American hegemony.
     
  22. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

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    In this planet, it is impossible to stay neutral to this issue and make a comment about it. Because no matter what your motives are, as soon as you open your mouth somebody will be hurt just because "you are not defending" this somebody. If you can convince both sides that you are genuinely not supporting either side, then they will tell you to mind your own business. So, all in all, there is no way to handle this topic without taking a side.

    Up until recently, I was trying to stay in the middle; I was trying to see the mistakes or atrocities committed by both sides. Then one day I was called as being Jewish by an over excited Muslim activist. But hang on a minute, this thing has nothing to do with my personality, why the hell did I get this branding? That day I decided, yeah why not, from now on I will always prefer Israel propaganda over the Islamic ones, because at least Israelis have never accused me as "being muslim" or anything else.

    All in all, you are wrong Muslim guys. I don't care how many people suffered because of your struggle or I don't care who is the true owners of these territories. The formula is very simple: You don't listen and you accuse, that means you are automatically wrong. I'm going to find some excuses to defend Israelis, as they are minority in the region, they are always being attacked, and I will deliberately blind myself towards what Israel government is doing against Arabs. I will feel much relaxed now... How about that?
     
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Here's another interesting bottom line: Israel is the one place in the world and the last several thousand years of recorded history where Jews cannot and are not persecuted for being Jews.

    How did that line go about "no justice, no peace"? Forcible social activism? Right of self-determination, which I quizzed pj on above?
     

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