Why can't the universe be infinite big?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by pluto2, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Have you any concept of where the heat would have come from when you say "Hot". Heat is energy, so where does this energy come from?

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    When they talk like this if it started off infinite where does it expand into, as the dot's in those diagrams spread out.

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  3. ughaibu Registered Senior Member

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    Okay, in that case you haven't raised an objection to an infinite universe.
     
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  5. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    I was still questioning measurements in an infinite universe.
     
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  7. ughaibu Registered Senior Member

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    I've an idea. As it's difficult to understand what you're asking, or even what you mean by a "measurement", how about you giving the answer to the same question but for a finite universe.
     
  8. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    If it came from somewhere, then wouldn't (or shouldn't) your question simply become "where did what it came from come from?"?

    Perhaps energy has simply always been around, and manifests dynamically according to it's own nature.

    It isn't expanding into anything (if it was, whatever it is expanding into would be part of the universe as well). What is happening is that the 'space' between gravitationally bound clumps of matter is simply increasing.

    See: Metric expansion of space
     
  9. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Isn't that part of the problem. We use the word Universe which to you means everything there is, but I just think of the Universe as everything within the cosmos (for lack of a word to describe it).
    Like there are those that think in terms of Multiverses (like multiple Universes) or is each pod, part of the whole Universe? That is what I haven't quite understood yet.
    So what would you call the "universe/cosmos" if it was inside something else which is outside of the Universe as we know it. Use your terminology so we talk the same language.
     
  10. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    If there is indeed a multiverse, then that's what I would call it, and in that context would we would refer to the universe as our universe.
     
  11. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    I assumed that you knew what a measurement is. Anyway lets take an inch as a measurement now lets change the 2 inch into the new 1 inch, does this mean that the number 1 has changed not at all it's the measurement that has changed a rational number is an mathematical abstraction.

    As for measurement in a finite universe I thought measurement can only be achieved with finite dimensions essentially measurement can only be finite.
     
  12. ughaibu Registered Senior Member

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    So what? Why would that be a problem in an infinite universe but not in a finite universe?
     
  13. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    One conceptual problem I noticed years ago was the reference used when discussing the BB. If the BB began as a point singularity, with all the mass/energy of the universe, the BB reference, which would be the only reference that existed, would be very close to the speed of light reference. The BB would see near infinite distance and time contained on its point sized self. It is the alpha and omega, or both point and infinite.

    Our earth reference did not exist at the time of the BB and therefore does not count to the BB. The earth reference will create a false sense of perspective since it only sees the point, but not the near infinite view that the BB also sees.

    As the BB expands and space-time expands, the dual reference seem by the BB, sees the near infinite universal view appearing to contract. Where the two BB references finally meet, would be where there appears to be only one reference.
     
  14. Pincho Paxton Banned Banned

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    In fact you can call a Galaxy a Universe, you just have to decide how far man can really travel. We should just concentrate on the Galaxy as our Universe. There are infinite universe out there.. who cares? Some are very small, some are very large. It is likely that we are in some random Universe, and we are better off thinking about the Galaxy.
     
  15. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    The question is if our universe is to be an infinite one then how is measurement possible, since measurement requires finiteness.



    Most scientists and even the layman doesn't usually think of the galaxy as a universe, the universe is by definition everything that exists so I think if we inhabit a multiverse then we're inhabiting a sub-universe in it to be precise. So if we do live in a multiverse then there will not be multiverses.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  16. ughaibu Registered Senior Member

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    We been through this. What is measured are finite subsets, and this is the case in both finite and infinite universes, so, if measurement is possible in a finite universe, then it's possible in an infinite universe, unless you can give some argument to the effect that it is not. Again, why dont you answer the question of how is measurement possible in a finite universe? If you do so, what you're asking might become clearer, I would have an example of the kind of answer that you're looking for and I might get some idea of what problem you think is introduced by an infinite universe.
     
  17. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, we have been through this but you seem to be deliberately ignoring that rational numbers or mathematical abstractions are not measurements themselves and do not represent measurement. If we are to treat measurements as finite subsets then why do you not provide solid evidence that it has been proven that mathematical abstractions have representations in physical reality and are not just abstractions.
     
  18. ughaibu Registered Senior Member

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    BUT I HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOU'RE ASKING, BECAUSE THE SAME CONSIDERATIONS APPLY WHETHER THE UNIVERSE IS FINITE OR INFINITE.
    Now will you please answer the question for a finite universe. If you cannot do that in your next reply to me, I will assume that you are not asking a genuine question.
     
  19. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    You didn't have to capitalize every letter of every word it makes you sound like a loudmouth. :bugeye:

    My question about what you said is what does finite subsets have anything to do with the physical reality of things whether it be a finite or infinite universe. Afterall finite subsets or sets or rational numbers are only abstractions. I've already given you my answer for the finite universe that measurement is possible in the finite universe because of finite dimensions, finiteness of space.
     
  20. ughaibu Registered Senior Member

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    Well, it's possible in an infinite universe, for exactly the same reason. Let's assume that we live in an infinite universe, I can place my hand on the computer screen and measure that screen in units of one hand, cant I? There's no mathematical abstraction going on, so what exactly do you think is the problem about this?
     
  21. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    What if the measurement is dependent on space being finite i.e. space between points literally. then would that not mean finite things like hands or computers cannot exist in an infinite universe which does not have space between points whatever it may have.
     
  22. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    No.
    And what makes you think that an infinite universe doesn't have "space between points"?
     
  23. wlminex Banned Banned

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    . . . the universe may or may not be infinite . . . but the universe "contains' all that we CAN observe, plus a lot of 'stuff' that we CAN'T (yet) observe!!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011

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