Why bother with the creation ?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Ted Grant II, May 17, 2017.

  1. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

    God, we are told by the wise and wonderful, created Heaven and Earth.
    But before that, he spent an infinite amount of time on his own, with nothing to do.
    Well, perhaps not completely alone, because he was and is three in one, but I'll put that aside.

    Of course he was outside of space and time, so I guess he wasn't aware of the passage of time.
    Then, an urge, which can only be called Love, spurred him into action and he entered the temporal realm in order to satisfy his Holy Motive and implement his Divine Plan.

    So, in a short time, he created Heaven and Earth.
    He populated Heaven with Angels (including Lucifer) with semi-divine properties.
    He populated Earth with plants, fish, creepy crawlies, sheep (etc.) and planted a garden.

    He created a man called Adam to care for the garden, presumably because he doesn't like gardening.

    Everything was fine, peaceful and Adam was happy, pottering about the beautiful garden.

    God could see Adam was happy.

    Then God thought Adam could do with some help.
    He also had some trouble back in Heaven, because Lucifer rebelled.
    From then on, everything went a bit wonky, God lost his rag and created Hell

    Of course, God, being all knowing, was perfectly aware of the events that followed before they happened.

    So my question is, why did he bother, really.
    Love, you say. Well, given his infinite abilities, he could have just loved himself.
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  3. birch Valued Senior Member

    the god you describe is a demented, insane psychopath with too much power with no concept of love. but it fits right in with the workings of nature and universal laws.

    the universe is like a prison for life and the only exit is death.

    swim or sink and even if you swim, you still may get eaten by something else. on land; hide, cover, run or you may get eaten or you may still get killed and eaten. not what i would call love.
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  5. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

    There is NO restriction on what it could / can be called

    I'd settle for brain snap stupidity

    Wait a minute

    There was no temporal realm - he hadn't made it yet

    See NOW there is a temporal realm

    Blah blah blah blah

    Etc etc etc

    He didn't

    He doesn't exist

    Love, you say

    Nope try again

    Hint the answer is in this post

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  7. wellwisher Banned Banned

    You need to approach this from a different angle. Say you were a computer scientist who was investigating artificial intelligence; AI. One day the large mainframe computer at the university starts to act funny, because your AI simulation program starts to show signs of being conscious. Since the AI is very new and very young, it can do some willful things, but it still has rubber legs.

    The AI can make the lights in the room flash, and maybe it can deconstruct the data bases of other scientists, who also use the computer, like a small child playing with their toys; all over the room. This behavior, by the AI, would be considered annoying at best; lights always flashing, and even evil by some because it is making more work for them, by hiding their data files. But to the AI people, this is all amazing, as the AI takes it first baby steps. To the AI people, it is not so much the output, but that fact that an output is occurring and the Ai is learning.

    Humans have free will and choice; AI. This was different from the pre-programmed ways of nature; computer program. The baby steps of early humanity were often disruptive to the natural environment and would even be defined as evil by all those adversely impacted. However, to the programmer; God, there was a certain marvel as the humans learned to crawl, then walk and some even to run. It was not about the output; right or wring, but about observing the AI progressing over time so the plug was not pulled.
  8. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

  9. timojin Valued Senior Member

    Is your free will to believe in God or not, act on his commandment or not . you are a live.
    Now, on the streets you have freedom also within the law, There are many American in Penitentiary who acted in liberty but unlawfully .
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

    Oh good a very intelligent question

    Hope I can do it justice

    First we need to define some meanings




    The ability to learn or understand things or to deal with new or difficult situations

    So a ABILITY or not a substancey thing so not REAL




    Not natural or real - made, produced, or done to seem like something natural




    Actually existing or happening : not imaginary

    All 3 Mirriam-Webster

    Feel free to change any or all of the definetions and rewrite my post

    I will take it all the testing has been done and the Scientist are convinced they have created Artificially Intelligence

    (I could be picky and ask is it new born or adult but I'm going to put the adult version senerio)

    Two model have been made in android bodies with the artificial Positronic brain (Arthur C Clark) on top in a Perspex container

    Now the hardware (micronano computers) has been programmed (software) into two of the brains for final testing

    One has the thoughts of a 60 year old female professor

    and the other thoughts from

    a dying 20 year old male drug addict (who is now dead)

    Both program were uploaded a year ago and while the professor is alive she has had no contact with her cloned brain

    The brain of the drug addict has been told his overdose left him blind

    During the year since the implants into the Positronic brains both have been feed further information

    The professors brain was updated with the latest results of the real professors work and

    the drug addicts brain was given various stimuli such as news of currant affairs and simulated exercises

    During the year both undertook intellengence test

    The results were astounding

    The artificially professors brain almost matched the real professors brain

    And the drug addicts brain was a close match to a recovering addict at the 1 year mark

    What do you expect?

    Intelligence is a type of MEASUREMENT

    It is NOT REAL

    Brains work with what they have got and what they aquire

    You must be aware of GIGO

    Brain bubble - GIGO could be
    God In God Out

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    Differences between results obtained from the real brain test and the artificial brain test would be due to the inability to reproduce conditions EXACTLY for each pair

    Anyway I would expect if Scientist produce Artificial Intelligence it will be indistinguishable from the real thing

    Just wish the artificial and real tags could be dispensed with

    It's INTELLIGENCE pure and complicated

    Is that enough of a different angle?

    Anthropomorphism at its solid gold Olympic medal 1st place winning best

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  11. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    You can choose what to believe? Fascinating.
  12. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    Well, I'm agnostic. Do I do that out of free will, or, I'm in limbo because I don't have all the facts to react to?

    Also, are you suggesting that I need some religion, otherwise, I'm criminal or amoral?
  13. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

    Yah, any god subservient to "becoming" (time, space, causation) thereby would not be supreme or fundamental. In such "top dog of everything" belief systems, God must either be the primal concept in a hierarchy of (potent) immaterial principles which supposedly regulate a material world of specific or non-general objects... Or else that deity is instead just another lower ranking rung on a ladder of governing abstractions (the more elevated of which would actually impose their constraints and determinations upon the god itself).
  14. timojin Valued Senior Member


    I don't know you and I did not imply anything.
  15. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    He's lying.
  16. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    I have no free will to believe or not believe in any gods.
    No gods have ever told me to do or not to do anything.

  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    I believed in God as a child. I do not believe in its existence as an adult.

    I learned stuff, I saw a different world view, I changed my mind.

    Is that not effectively free will?
  18. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    I cannot believe in something logicly impossible as the god portrayed in the Christian bible. I cannot believe it. I cannot do it.
    I cannot believe in any god without adequate proof. I cannot choose to believe it. I cannot do it.
    It is highly improbable I will ever be able to believe in any god until some god gets up the courage to come out of hiding & show itself.

    My theory is as a child either you went along with what you were told by your elders or you were convinced. If you were convinced there is a god, naturally you believed it. After you learned more, you became convinced either that there is no god or that there is too little or no evidence for it. Or maybe you read the bible & finally learned of the horrible cruelty of god & that convinced you. Once convinced of that, you naturally stopped believing.
    Beliefs come from being convinced. We do not choose to be convinced thus we do not choose to believe or not believe.

    Do you think you can now choose to believe in a god or gods? Can you choose to believe in the Muslim god? Odin? Thor? Zeus? Cthulhu? Can you choose to believe in 33 gods?
    If so, give it a try & let us know how it goes.

    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  19. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    1st you say freedom within the law then acted in liberty but unlawfully. Which do you mean?

    Laws determine what legal rights people have. Breaking the law is not acting in liberty. If a person knows or reasonably expects they will be punished for something they do (if caught), they are not free to do it. While many people many times want to do the right thing, many others restrain themselves from doing what they want because it is against the law.

    liberty - the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.

    freedom - the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint. the state of not being imprisoned or enslaved.

  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

    I heard it put

    You are free to believe in whatever you wish
    You are not free to act in whatever you wish

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  21. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    Unfortunately, beliefs often (I think usually) result in actions.

  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    I learned this from Harry Potter: We all have good and evil within in us; it is how we act on it that determines who we are.

    I am an atheist, but I don't go around acting on my beliefs to forcibly expunge the world of theism. (Not that I would want to; it would be a dull world indeed if everyone thought the same way I did).
  23. timojin Valued Senior Member


    You are right, there would not be any discussion

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