Why? (A second attempt)

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by CHRISCUNNINGHAM, Dec 1, 2010.

  1. Bravowon Registered Senior Member

    If heaven exists outside of time then was Lucifer evil and good concurrently and eternally?
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  3. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

    Surely the greatest honour of all? Why wouldn't any entity want to be absolute perfection, (i.e god) and why would such a perfect entity have a problem with someone else wanting to be him?

    Kindly establish that we have this 'free will' you claim. Your statement is pointless without it. [Hu]mankind is "truly" what [hu]man kind is in absence of 'free will' - should we not have it, (which is certainly the better argument). Free will does not stand well under scrutiny.
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  5. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    When i asked why it was important to you. I was asking only about 1 Specific question you had. That was "Why did God create the angels first"

    Why didn't you answer my Question? Why did you write all the above that has nothing to do with the question i asked You?

    Extremely frustrating when you do your best to answer specific points and then the person totally ignores your specific question and goes off in a ramble that has nothing to do with the point of the question asked.

    So again i will ask you a question.

    Why is it important for you to know why God created Angels first?????

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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  7. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Heaven exists independant of our Time. This does not mean Heaven does not have it's own Time.

    But interesting question.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  8. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Because God knows the created do not have the capability to be Him, Simple.

    If you know that such an attempt will only lead to disaster you might seek to create a "simulation" ( a safe controlled simulation as far as the angels are concerned) where such an attempt could be played out. Thereby showing the outcome before all the angels are caught up in the attempt and also share in the disaster that is satan.

    Ummm No.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  9. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

    how would any MAN know the answer to that one???
  10. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member


    I didn't ignore your response, Adstar, I in fact acknowledged that I would take some time in responding to everyone's post with your post in mind specifically. And when you DID quote me in your post, you quoted the ENTIRE introduction. So I was assuming, incorrectly it seems, that you were questioning "why is it important that I find the qualitative value in God". Thus I responded.

    If you only meant to quote the question "why did god create angels before man" only quote that section please to help reduce confusion, and I will make an honest attempt to dissect the quoted sections more thoroughly. Moving on...

    The answer to Why he created Angels before man is important to me for the simple reason that. If...

    Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' " (Genesis 1:26)

    Why didn't he create Angels to do so? Lucifer and friends were made capable of sinning, and man to follow? What's the point in having happy sinless angels if you want angels to sin?

    If you DON'T want angels to sin, then why give them the capacity to do so?

    If a plan was to create a race of beings who knew of God greatness, because he NEEDED them to, why not create NO angels that were capable of sinning, create man capable of sinning, man sins, one man becomes the ruler of the underworld by God's natural propensity for condemnation, and then go from there? What's the point in the angels doing the sinning first, and then create man to be punished and saved for it? Why not punish the angels and give them a chance for redemption and salvation? Why not send Jesus down from the throne to save all of Angel and demons from further sin, for they were BORN/CREATED in sin? Why the extra step?

    Again, why create man to follow if Satan and the angels had the whole sinning thing down, and the potential to be saved by God's grace and their freedom of choice?

    Maybe? Why does the Perfect bible leave so much room for speculation? I don't like speculation on claimed factual events, I like definites, things that are verifiable.

    When we start assuming things, and changing things around, we begin to erode any "perfection" involved with what it is we're speculating about. And surely I would assume a Perfect book would leave no room for speculation, wouldn't you?

    If it SHOULD have speculation, then how are we to trust SOME parts, if we can speculate on others, how can one tell the difference if it's all from the same source?

    Especially if I am told from one section of the perfect book to "trust in God to give you the answers" and in the other part to "stone my daughter if she does not remain celibate". The burden of proof is for God, Jesus, The Angels, Satan, the Apostles, and the architects of the Bible.

    I am not claiming to know and tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God. They are! So why leave room for speculation? Just because there is speculation does not mean speculation is necessary for free will.

    If someone tells me 2+2=5 is a fact, and I have free will, guess what... I have the freedom to tell them, no actually 2+2=4! That's what free will is all about. If I am given the facts about something, I can CHOOSE to disbelieve or believe it, just as I can choose to believe or disbelieve the "facts" in the bible, wouldn't you would agree?

    So please adstar, don't say speculation is necessary to test our free will and faith in God, because the test doesn't work. What if I were to test my faith and stone my daughter, but NOT trust in God to give me the answer? How is this test any less valid?

    Would I be ok in the Good Book? Or perhaps would I be judged negatively?

    And, remembering some of your own posts, I think I can predict your answer, but I'm asking nevertheless. Please don't forget about the other questions, it does become annoying when someone ignores your honest responses and goes on a tangent about something "irrelevant" to the question.

    I agree with everything you say here. But it still doesn't answer the question of WHY Adam and Eve were created when the whole sinning, saving, and freedom of will were already established by the Angels? Why couldn't the angels be saved by God's only begotten son, Jesus Christ? It appears angels were qualitatively human or at least could have been made as humans were made, both born capable of sin with the freedom of will. Why make too much of a Good/Perfect/Created by God-thing? Why make man when Angels were doing and are doing the EXACT same thing?

    Ok, but you just said Angels had free will. So why create more beings with free will, when you already had beings with free will, if your only intention was to create a being with the free will to defy your greatness and sin and be saved by your son Jesus Christ, and seek salvation? Angels did all the ground work, why weren't they worthy of being saved?! God created them first.

    So my next question is (and I bet you can guess what it is, because there is clearly a trend here) if the Angels knew what Good and Bad were, why did some choose bad? Why did God give them, even if only a few, the propensity for Immoral behavior, if he was going to punish them for it? It wasn't their choice, as angels, to have a PROPENSITY for Immoral behavior, that's on God, he created them. And by propensity, I mean, pre-existing condition. I don't get to choose to be naturally right handed...though I CAN train my brain to favor the left with enough practice and time. But I will forever have had a propensity for right-handedness, it was innate.

    If an Angel such as Lucifer did not have a propensity, in-built, for Immoral behavior then, by default, in his moralization and reasoning of WHY he wants to do things a certain way, like be right-handed, or become God, it naturally proves to be something outside of his control, because, as I said in the irrelevant post to which you responded to, if one doesn't WANT to do something, naturally, he cannot do it. You cannot force your right foot to tap the ground if you WANT/WILL your left foot to tap the ground, just as you can't will yourself to be right handed, just as you can't will yourself to be a naturally miserable person, or a naturally murderous person, try it.

    You can train yourself to be murderous, but it's not natural. How did Lucifer TRAIN himself to WANT to become God?

    Angels, I would assume, seeing that I've been given room for speculation, have free will, and thus are potentially able to DO THINGS they WILL to do, and NOT DO things they do NOT WILL to do. SO, why WILL yourself to be immoral in the eye of your creator, someone who is more powerful than you and in fact created your very existence so could easily destroy it, if you're not naturally a being that would think that way? What snake sneaked in your tree? What's the point? What will you accomplish?

    I've been given the mental faculty to NOT walk off a cliff because it will very likely kill me, and I don't really want to die just yet. Infants capable of crawling, will NOT crawl over a perceptual cliff (covered in glass so as not to harm them if they do) unless their mother is on the other side, calling them and motioning them to come. And even THEN they hesitate, and these infants are often less than 7 months old. Lucifer decided he was going to crawl off a cliff without his father telling him to do so? Or am I wrong?

    If Angels didn't know, then why did God punish them?

    This is a lot to chew on, Adstar, I know. So I will end it here, a bit over halfway down your responses. Most of the questions proposed in my original posts were variations of the same question, but by answering one a certain way you would have to answer them all similarly, which it seems you've missed answering the first of them by asking me "Why is it important" and it's important because it helps answer allll the questions that follow below it!
  11. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Did i say that any MAN did???????????

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  12. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Ok fair enough. A Break down in communication. I apologise for my part in that breakdown.

    The answer to Why he created Angels before man is important to me for the simple reason that. If...

    Why didn't He create Angels to do so.... What? Create them with the ability to create mankind? Or create them to have dominion over the fish of the sea exetera ? What?

    What Man to follow angels? Or man to follow the ability to sin?

    If you want to create free willed beings then they have got to have the ability to be against you.

    If you do not give a created being the ability to reject the Right Way then they are not free willed beings. And a being that is not free willed is not a being at all. It's all about what God wanted. He wanted Free willed beings.

    Once again. God wanted real beings not mindless Zombies. Once you create a being that cannot decide to go against you then you have created something other than an indipendant conscience.

    Underworld? do you mean Hell? Ruler? there is no man ruler of Hell. God is in control of Hell. He created it and decides who spends time there. There is no king of Hell.

    So that some of the Angels can be saved from going the way of satan. The bible states that in the end two thirds of the angels will be on Gods side and will be lead by the angel Micheal and will fight and defeat and cast out of heaven one third of the angels lead by satan. So 2/3rds of the angels are saved from going the way of satan, How many angels are there? 1 trillion, 50 trillion? who knows. Lets get this into perspective how long is eternity compared to the lengh of a mans physical life? How long are we required to serve God by being in this current state of being? it's a pitance compared to eternity, it does not even compare.

    I guess it goes along the line of the principal that to those that are given much, Much will be required. Angels know God is, they look upon Him they are in His presance and have known Him for a long time. You and me however have far less to go on. You and i are given a tiny morsal, angels sit down to a magnificent feast. God has made it far easyer for us. But for angels who willfully rebell against Him there is no forgivness.

    I don't believe Gods grace extends to Angels. Gods grace is for mankind. And again i believe God created the universe and Us to save some Angels from going the way of satan. And He also provided an easy path for us to salvation. By simply believeing Jesus and trusting in the atonement He provided for us.

    Maybe. God wanted to keep things hidden. Part of a good stratedgy in war is to keep your mobilization plan a secret from your enemy. If satan know what God was up to i doubt he would have made a move on us, to tempt us with His desire to be God.

    Of cource it leaves room for speculation. The room gives room for those who want to reject it the way out. It gives room for those who reject the essential message to create a religion for themselves. Not all who reject the atonement of the Messiah Jesus, want to give up the concept of God. They Just want a god that fits into what they think God should be. The room for speculation gives them the space to manuver to create their smorgasbord god.

    Our Helper, The Holy Spirit. The one Jesus promised to send, the one that came on the day of penticost. But if you do not believe in God and you do not believe Jesus then you would not believe the Holy Spirit. If God wants to guide us into understanding what we need to understand then He will provide a way. Now if God does not want to do this then we are all up the creek without a paddle. The Hope that I have, is that God does want, thoes He wants, to understand, what He knows we need to understand.

    If you read the entire message of the bible and are given wisdom to understand then you will understand why the Law was given and why it involved the death penalty.

    Once again if you only want those who are accepting of the love of the truth to be saved by that truth then you will allow those who have rejected the love of the truth to use the bible to go down their own merry deceptive path to oblivion. As is revealed by scripture.

    2 Thessalonians 2
    9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    So the concept is clear. those who reject the Love of the truth, God will ensure they are decieved, he will make sure they end up being deluded.

    Yes. But is one disbeleving because something is unbelievable, or are they rejecting because the message is an offense to them or follishness to them. Like when they bring up examples like stoning a woman for adultry? Does that have anything to do with belief or disbelief? Or has it more to do with agreement or disagreement?

    ?... If you stoned your daughter you would not be following the Faith of the Messiah Jesus.

    By God negatively. By some religions it would be considered a noble act.

    I hope you apologise to me for that. As i have apologised to you for my mistake.

    Again, i do not believe the saving part has anything to do with angels.

    Angels don't need to have any faith to believe God is. they see Him as He is all the time. They are different to us in many respects and therefore live under a different law.

    As i have already said. To provide them an example, a story, to win them over to your perfect Way.

    Your asking the same question. over and over and over again. Do you think that if you ask the same thing over and over, just asking it in slightly different ways your going to get the magical answer you want?

    Once again to have free willed beings requires then by definition to have the ability to go against your will for them. Simple.

    I totally disagree. Your trying to say satan was hopelessly forced into rebellion because God make Him that way. No. satan was capable of making another choice. he decided to go the way he did because of pride, and pride commeth before destruction.

    satan had the option to go either way. Just as humans upon hearing the word of God have the option to go either way.

    satan made a play to win over all creation (at the time the hevenly host angels) probably beliving that if He won over all of creation he would force the hand of God (because of His mercy) to give into satans will. satan made a miscalculation. Just like japan did when it attacked pearl harbour. A lot of people with lust for power miscalculate things.

    lucifer thought he was on a winner. he did not think he was walking off a clift. He thought he was getting into an elevator to Godhood. little did he know the elevator was a gas chamber.

    satan knew what he was doing in relation to mankind. He wanted to show how God could be undermined by spoiling His new creation. Little did he know that what he put into train would lead to God being justified in the eyes of 2/3rds of the hevenly host.

    Yes i know. As i said, you keep on asking the same question. I am wondering why.

    Well as far as i know i have answered your repeated question multiple times now. So all done.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  13. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

    This is a quick replay, and perhaps I will add to it later today, but...

    Adstar, I TOLD you why I am asking "the same question" because the first question has to be answered first, and then the others, being similar in nature would have to follow that answer, otherwise you have a contradiction.

    If a theory of gravity predicts that the ball will fly away from the earth when thrown down to the ground, and the ball does not go anywhere but down, the theory is wrong.

    If you answer the questions: WHY didn't God created Angels first in the same light he created man? Why weren't the ANGELS the "man" created in his image and "man" (me and you and adam and eve) never existed? Why create angels close to him knowing his power? Why not give them room for speculation? Why see them everyday and show them your powers if you WANT to prove a point and be worshipped?

    Angels were created first but without that ingredient of "speculation" thats so important, it seems. WHY?
  14. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

    i can speculate on that!..

    so they could not entertain the prospect of disobeying god.

    speculation = what if?
  15. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    No. I can answer any one of thoes questions without forming a contradiction.

    And??? Whats that got to do with our discussion???

    I don't know. Maybe he wanted to create angels at the time and Not Men. I have already stated that i believe men and the universe only exists because of God's reaction to satans rebellion. If satan never rebelled i don't think we would be having this discussion now.

    I guess because God needed us to be what we are. so we could be used for the purpose that we are being used for. When we are resurected we will be greater than Angels. But for now because of our lower awareness we are lower then them.

    Why not create angels close to him knowing more about His power. Oddly i do not think they knew all about Gods power. I am sure satan never knew that God knows the future. How can you win against someone who pre-knows all your moves, your tactics.

    Who said they do not have room for speculation...

    Don't understand this question at all.

    Once again who said they never had the ability to speculate? satan must have speculated that He could be god before making his play.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  16. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

    Squirrel, but how then, can Lucifer ask "what if I disobey God" and then proceeds to do so? Clearly they did have the cognitive ability. Was that not enough? Why create humans to do the same exact thing, only with a BETTER and more excusable reason than Lucifer, because they had a snake tell them?

    You see this is the key of my entire discussion, really. And I've been mentioning, but it gets mixed up with the other niceties of the conversation so it becomes lost in translation...but...

    Lucifer had free will, and used it, and was punished for it...

    It was God saying, "Hey by the way folks those who choose to disobey me have unfavorable consequences, in case I didn't give you the capacity to understand it previously, I will use Lucifer and his cohorts to remind you."

    BUT then humans were used to create the same thing. What for? What did God FORGET when he made Angels, because clearly he was not satisfied enough to just stick with them. In his infinite understanding of all things, which I would hope includes himself, I would expect that you get it right the first time? And if not, then perfection is lacking, which enegenders the greatest of questions...

    What was God reasoning for creating Angels? What was God's reasoning for creating humans and earth, and sky, and fish and sea, after that? What's the point? What's the gain? How can an infinite being gain ANYTHING at all, satisfaction, pride, love, worship? Perfection implies a lack of NOTHING? Or am I incorrect in this idea of perfection?

    No one said it directly, not even me? I was entertaining the idea, in my post previous to the one you were quoting, that either there is or ISN'T room for speculation...

    If there is, why create man, separately? If there isn't, then why not?

    You attempted to answer the questions with...

    ...with the rest to follow. So you're speculatiing...you have no idea why? neither do I. The perfect book doesn't tell us anything about anything. It says it is perfect, God is infallible, and the whole world was created for him to be worshipped and loved, and for beings to understand his greatness. Why? no one knows anything besides 2+2=5 just because...have faith or suffer internal damnation.

    The problem with the entire prospect of this is, God, my creator, made me ask why 2^2=4. I, while being conceived, never ever, chose to WANT to know the answer to that question. I did not go through an infinite list of questions took a gander at all of them, objectively, and decide which ones are important to me. I wasn't persuaded by unnatural forces (to my knowledge) to enjoy actually understanding. I did not sign a contract with the devil...I read a book when i was 8 years old called Magic School Bus: Lost in the Solar System. I was given a chemistry set for kids. And my grandfather, seeing my aptitude for math and language, gave me one of his microscopes to look as slides of blood cells, before i even knew what they were. So at what point was I destined for eternal suffering?

    Because the only thing I want to know is why? And if no one can tell me, then I find out for myself, or assume that the idea is flawed. Thus my "rejection" of God. Because there is no answer to why...you can have faith that 2+2=5, in the meantime, I, given my propsensity for learning, decided to make sure it doesn't equal 4...

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