Who put God in charge?

Oh boy...

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Ekimklaw wrote:
First of all Voodoo Child... your moniker "kill your President" is VERY offensive. Please change it.
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Voodoo Child wrote:
Why would I do that? It's already very offensive.
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Maybe you think it's funny to encourage people to kill someone, but I don't. Not only that but there are federal laws against it. I will report you as soon as I am finished responding to your "post".



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Ekimklaw wrote:
Whether you believe he is real, or a figment of imagination will determine whether your question is relevant or not.
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Voodoo Child wrote:
No it doesn't. If I don't believe God exists then I can still access the the coherence of the God myth.
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Look, if you believe he is real, then what difference does it make what you think he should do? He will do his will regardless. Therefore your question is moot. If you do NOT think he exists, why are we having this conversation to begin with?


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Voodoo Child wrote:
He created us perhaps, but in the same way parents don't have absolute authority over their adult children be shouldn't necessarily have authority over us.
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Ekimklaw wrote:
Says you. Who died and left you in charge?
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Voodoo Child wrote:
No one died and left me in charge. Same for God. Generally this idea of adult autonomy is quite universally present across people and cultures.
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It is NOT up to you to determine what God should or shouldn't do. It IS up to you to believe or not. Do you understand? God is a supreme being. Implicit in that is his being totally above human comprehension. After all if he was comprehendable, he would not be GOD. That which we CAN comprehend about God is that which he has revealed to us. This revelation to us speaks of "faith" and "things unseen" and lots of other hard concepts. Included in this text is the teaching that God is soverein over his creation. Our duty is to accept or reject this notion. <period>


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Voodoo Child wrote:
He was never elected, no one put him in charge. Where does his authority come from?
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Ekimklaw wrote:
He created us, and in fact ALL of reality.
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Voodoo Child wrote:
So? The All-Knowing has said this a few times. Now explain why you forever keep authority over something that you have created, when it is self-aware.
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Here's another analogy. Think of a top as opposed to a rotary engine. With a top one provides motion initially and leaves it to run down. With a motor on the other hand it is fueled and repaired and attended to in order that it should run for a long time. The motor requires active involvement, while the top requires initial involvment only. The Earth is more like the motor, because God is still involved.


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Voodoo Child wrote:
It is a reasonably elementary theological question, in sure it has a reasonable answer, I just don't see it.
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Ekimklaw wrote:
That's like asking why the Earth has the right to impose the law of gravity on people of Earth. It's because the law of gravity (and many other physical laws) is part of the original setup.
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Vodoo Child wrote:
The problem with this analogy should be obvious to most: neither the earth nor gravity can choose not to apply themselves to people. They have no consciousness and no choice.
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No, but people sure can choose to defy gravity. Whether or not gravity can or cannot choose to apply itself to people is irrelevant. There exists today gravity. Defying it carries stiff penalties (like falling to your death). If you consider that God exists, similarly immutable MORAL laws are in place on Earth. So, the analogy is in fact a perfect one. You can claim "gravity doesn't exist" all you want to (it will still exist anyway), and choose to defy it. Just like God. But watch out. There are consequences.


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Ekimklaw wrote:
Similarly when God created the universe he created it with immutable moral laws. You are free to believe it or not.
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Voodoo Child wrote:
That's just spiffy. Do we know what they are yet?
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Yeah, read the Bible.

-Mike

 

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Who put God in charge?

Humans did. He was applying for the secretarial position but his credentials were just so good.

 

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to Counselorcoffee

<font color=red><font size=7>har har...</font></font>

-Mike

 

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To Ekimklaw,

har de har har de har har

 

Yeah, you do that. You know that you don't actually have to do something because its written down, right? You could just maim him. or, with incredible force of will you could not hurt him altogether.

Have you considered that it is not intended literally, but is merely a call to anarchy and a rebellion against authority? Has it occurred to you that it is a ironic political statement condemning the policies of a certain chimp- faced leader?

But you just said my belief determines the question's relevance. Now you are saying that it is irrelevant either way. We are a bit confused, hmmm?

If I believe he is real then it does make a difference. If I believe that God holds the value of autonomy then it has certain implications for the universe. If I believe that the universe has certain attributes(eg. afterlife, nature of evil) then this may suggest the creator has certain attirbutes. This a basic theological idea that I've sure you've encountered before.
Also you've created a false dichotomy, I could be undecided and assessing the possibility of a supreme beings existence by way of critically examining the premises of popular theistic brands.

Yes. I know. I've said the same thing. You've referring to the passage I said it in.

Apart from "God's ways are incomprehensible" being intellectually lazy, that doesn't necessarily follow. There is no good reason why we might not fully comprehend some limited aspect of him(such as his reasoning behind his claims to sovereignity over the universe). You have already shown that you have comprehended several aspects of his being:

1) The omni- attributes, that he believes/created/enforces moral absolutes

2) you have comprehended that you can comprehend nothing about him. Which, to be fair, is actually a comprehension about your lack of comprehension and nothing to with his being.

It could be entirely possible that he is omnipotent and omniscient, yet as simple and pure as a child. If you find that combination baffling it may be because God is completely incomprehensible.

Yes, we established his sovereignity according to the Big Book O' Fun. What we are trying to do here is find a justification, a logical basis for this authority.

Ick. You can't defy gravity. It always works on you. When you fall you are in strict accordance with the law of gravity. It is the gravity that provides the force to kill you. Even when you jump you aren't defying gravity: it still works to decelerate you at a force proportional to your mass.

"You can claim "gravity doesn't exist" all you want to"

I'm not. Pay attention. We are talking about God/Gravity's right to impose itself. Since gravity is noncognizant it can not adhere to or have rights(Unless perhaps a sentient being assigns them value).

False analogy: motors aren't self-aware, don't have free will. You are saying that God has sovereignity over us because he maintains the universe? That doesn't follow.

I think you're missing the joke. Or playing dumb.

 

Wowee...

<font size=4><tt>The fact remains: If God exists, we have no power to dictate how he should behave. If he doesn't exist, then discussing him is pointless.</tt></font>
<HR WIDTH="100%" COLOR="#FF0000" SIZE="4">

 

So your justification, therefore, is:

1) God has a right to assert authority over the universe because we have no power to change this.

2) This is indubitable because you used a large, monotype font.

 

True, we should never think unless it is totally unavoidable. That thesis is consistent with itself.

 

Re: Oh boy...

Oh, for the love of Lugh! Get your bible out of your arse and get with the real world, Ekimlaw.

Voodoo never specified a specific person. "President" could refer to anybody. It could refer to the president of Jack in the Box, for all we know. Perhaps Voodoo meant "kill" in the way we say when we "kill" a bill in congress. I regularly write "kill" programs for my employer, they do nothing more than eliminate people from mailing lists. Perhaps that's what Voodoo meant - remove the president of Jack in the Box from your mailing list.

Federal laws? What if Voodoo is in, say, Finland? Finland really gives a rat's arse about Federal laws.

So...did you make your little report? Who did you report to? Did you make a phone call, send a letter, a fax, an email? Or were you just trying to threaten Voodoo? You know, there are laws against making threats too. Are you attempting to blackmail Voodoo? Laws against that too.

*derisive snort*

I find YOUR tagline offensive. Believer in God...which god? Yaweh? I think he prefers to be feared. I guess I'll just have to report you to God...leading people down the wrong path, away from fearing God... Shame on you!

(Sounds ridiculous, yes? *wink* Now you're getting it!)

 

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Cupric wrote:
Oh, for the love of Lugh! Get your bible out of your arse and get with the real world, Ekimlaw.
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Oh ok. Hang on... uhhh, ug.. there. Man I feel a lot better. Carrying my Bible in my "arse" all this time has proven uncomfortable. Talk about chafing. Hey thanks Cupric. [sarcasm]


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Cupric wrote:
Voodoo never specified a specific person.
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That's cute. Unfortunately in another post he DID specify. I quote:

"Has it occurred to you that it is a ironic political statement condemning the policies of a certain chimp- faced leader?"

He means President George W. Bush ( http://www.bushorchimp.com/ )


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Cupric wrote:
"President" could refer to anybody. It could refer to the president of Jack in the Box, for all we know. Perhaps Voodoo meant "kill" in the way we say when we "kill" a bill in congress. I regularly write "kill" programs for my employer, they do nothing more than eliminate people from mailing lists. Perhaps that's what Voodoo meant - remove the president of Jack in the Box from your mailing list.
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Good lord...


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Cupric wrote:
Federal laws? What if Voodoo is in, say, Finland? Finland really gives a rat's arse about Federal laws.
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Actually he is in New Zealand. I knew this. Doesn't change anything.


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Cupric wrote:
So...did you make your little report? Who did you report to? Did you make a phone call, send a letter, a fax, an email? Or were you just trying to threaten Voodoo? You know, there are laws against making threats too. Are you attempting to blackmail Voodoo? Laws against that too.
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Blackmail?

Uh... yes I sent a complaint to the operator of this board. By the way you think my complaining about his offensive moniker is worse than his encouragement to "kill [my] President"?. You ARE a twisted individual.


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Cupric wrote:
I find YOUR tagline offensive. Believer in God...which god? Yaweh? I think he prefers to be feared. I guess I'll just have to report you to God...leading people down the wrong path, away from fearing God... Shame on you!
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Gainsaying. And I might add, a weak point. However it is precious that you jumped to the aid of your fellow atheist. I guess he needed help. Too bad YOU were all that showed up. Your "assistance" was... hmmm... feckless.

-Mike

 

Wrong, I was contemplating whether you had considered one of the alternative interpretations. This isn't the only interpretation I suggest. Also:

Yes. I'm getting walloped. >Snicker<