who is your favorite zen teacher?

I am asking whom is your favorite zen philospher and what did u learn from them. Mine is Taisen Deshimaru who studied who passed on in 1982. I only have one of his books but have read a lot more of stuff though none of it recently. I still have his book "the zen way to the martial arts." On page 76 of that book is a chapter on sutemi which, as George Leonard (the translater and aikido sensei) puts it means abandon body. At the time I was reading the book I was in college and was toying with kickboxing and just deciding I was going to apply to the school of business to pursue my degree. I had been in college for about 18 months at that time.

My major obstacle with kickboxing (actually the kickboxing part may be ironic cause TD was not very keen on sport fighting), was spending a lot of time on thinking and working on not get hit so much so that I was not working so much on swatting with the other guy. It was pka style meaning full contact with boxing gloves...like a boxing match with footmitts on. I was also under a lot of stress when applying to the business school and had just gotten a "D" in a business class and was thinking of going back to the school of sociology which was sure to accept me as I had a an A and 2 B's in the first three sociology classes I had taken.

I was reading his chapter on sutemi which has to do with sacrifice throws in the martial arts. A sacrifice throw is one where you drop to the ground to throw the other person thus sacrificing your standing position. I decided I was going to sacrifice my defense in sparring to mount a better offense by being more aggressive and in school I decided I was going to take the business classes (probably sacrificing my gpa ha ha), with an abandoment for one year and see where I sat from there.

Two things happened. One my kickboxing with my change in mentality, improved dramatically within less than a month and I was able to look at it with a more calcuating eye and get pretty good at it. And second after that year was up in which, I never looked back, I did fairly well even getting strong grades in accounting classes and making some very high marks in the management classes.

The thing I like about zen is that it is applicable to life. But being an american

1) there are not many people who know much about it
2) it is discouraged as a substitute for purely rational thinking.

Having said this I figured on an intellectual forum somebody else would have experience with this and if so with what teach and what did u learn?

 

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ahhhh!!! give me a break!! I know someone else on here has read some zen stuff!!!

 

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Alan Watts- although he may not strictly be considered a Zen teacher, his explanations and examples from history worked for me. I also like The Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng, the Chinese poet Cold Mountain and 15th Century Zen Master Ikkyu (author of Crow With No Mouth). And, although his life ended in disgrace, I also greatly admire the Baghwan Shree Rajneesh (now known as Osho) for his extensive writings and sense of humor. They taught me that realization of your own nature is outside of any teaching, it's not esoteric, but immediate, so don't depend on them.

 

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Myself.

 

Alan Watts.

He got me interested and he made sense in a strange new way. I actually go to see and hear him at UBC before he died

 

Dogen would be the other one whom I have read and have much admiration for. He is credited with bringing Soto Zen to Japn 800 years ago.
http://www.zenki.com/

I was going to talk a little about what I learned from him but I cannot find my book so I went on the net. I found this

http://members.tripod.com/~chippit/dogen_cubed.html

and wanted to share it instead: If you cannot get the link to work tell me and I will post the whole thing.

The author of that page is Bonnie Myotai Treace Sensei.

Sensei is Japanese for teacher.

A couple of you said Alan Watts.....tell us how you have applied Watt's knowledge to your life...

 

I just got this emailed to me a qoute from Dogen

"The dharma is such that it cannot be attained by groping or searching about. In the realm of seeing, knowledge perishes. At the moment of attaining, mind is surpassed."

-Dogen, "Moon in a Dewdrop"

 

You don't exactly. This is one of the ways in which his wisdom differs from what we are used to. In the west, one gathers knowledge about life in order to form a sort of strategy, like in sports. When considering a "move", you then go back to your strategy and decide on an acceptable option in light of that knowledge. Taoists call this an inferior form of wisdom. It is useful to a degree, and it is accentuated in Confusionism. In Taoism, the approach is completely different. There is no method, strategy, or knowledge, one cultivates a natural "feeling" (or virtue) for the right move based on what is already within you. There are no fixed objects or ideals to achieve in life. This is also accompanied by an emphasis on personal transformation. Some, like me, believe that when Lao Tzu (said to be legendary the founder of Taoism) left China, he traveled to India, and influenced the Buddha.

 

Alan Watts for me as well. I read his "The Book : On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are" back in High School, and have always made sure a copy is on my bookshelves ever since.

I've read other works of his as well (and many along the same vein by different authors), but this was the first work of its kind I'd read - and so probably the most influential on me.

 

Get Real!!
Do Research Before Posting Or You Will Make An Ass Of Yourself!! Got It?

 

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Oh my god, Hideki Matsumoto was right. You are my new favorite Zen master!

 

True story:

I was down at the local solid waste transfer station towards the end of the summer - a place where garbage and recyclables are taken before they go off to a landfill. Nasty place - big building full of garbage, unspeakable smell, pigeons and noisy machinery. I was hauling my contribution in and stopped to talk to one of the guys who works there. He was a big grizzled guy who probably smelled just as bad as the building we stood in. I made some small talk about the weather, and how hot it could get in the garbage building, and he replied "Rain, heat, snow... it's all good.".

He really meant it, and it was one of those moments that made me remember that we can find zen expression almost anywhere.

 

The kind of centered Zen-like happiness with whatever circumstances nature throws your way, are something I think we all individually envy sometimes. Though, I also think perhaps if too many of our citizens felt this way - they would perhaps be far easier even then they already are to exploit by corporations/governments . . . just smiling and happily putting up with whatever conditions they were subjected to.

Though, at the same time - perhaps the power structure would be threatened because a population who was centered and happy would likely be less competitively consumerist and greedy . . . . wanting a bigger SUV than their neighbor, always wanting the latest and greatest, and etc. I don't know, its an interesting question. Maybe corporate/government powers would love to have zen-like happiness in their lowest level wage slaves . . . but want their middle class and wealthy to be constantly scrabbling and consuming in the search for happiness?

 

To study Zen is not to ignore everything around you or to put up with anything because you have Zen-like happiness. If anything corporations would be completely destroyed because if everyone possessed the empty mind of Zen then corporations would have nothing to offer them.

In response to the actually thread....I have really enjoyed reading the works of Nishida and Hisamatsu, and have enjoyed studying under Fukushima Roshi. In terms of how I could apply these things to my life I think this is a poorly worded question. For how can you apply the way things already are to your life? There is nothing to apply. Zen only shows us how to see what we already are.

 

Ah -- possibly. Though its also pretty clear that what it means to ''study zen'', what Zen ''shows you'' and such is not so easy to define. The term itself eludes easy definition. Or else, why the thousands of books pointing out, among other things, just how personal and slippery it is?

So lets not pretend to quickly define what it is or isn't to study/know/be/fish zen.

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I'm not entirely sure how you took anything I said about Zen as easily defining it. I can assure that I completely agree. I would go a step further and say that there is nothing to define, that Zen is undefinable. To define Zen or to know Zen would simply be to have missed Zen in the first place. I was merely saying that my image of Zen is that Zen shows us what we already are, it points to nothing new, nothing is revealed in Zen. Or maybe in better words Zen is the attempt to hear the silence of our own being. There is nothing simple about that. Thanks.

 

I like Alan Watts' stuff myself, though I quickly ended up replacing him with Thich Nhat Hanh: I get more from his books than from Alan's. No offence to Alan at all, just more my style.

Well said Mushin. Very simple and infinatly complex.

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There is nothing simpler than that!!!

 

The point is as I think was pointed out previously, that Zen is undefineable. Zen is often described as a state of non-thought. And if we are to take this concept as a description of Zen then we are ultimately getting stuck in a paradox. We can not think about non-thought.

And to speak about Zen requires language and thought (=constructs of language), therefore we cannot speak about Zen. Because language without thought is just words, essentialy sounds. Language cannot be used to express Zen.

Zen can only be a subjective experience, you cannot recieve it the way we recieve knowledge and understanding through language. You have to experience it yourself.

You can only point at the door and all that shite. Obvious Zen stuff. I'm just pointing out that talking about Zen is paradoxical.

My words mean nothing, and that is the point. There is no point, and that is the point... The point is contained within itself. Point and non-point.

Ah finaly I'm enlightened.

 

Talking about a tree is not a substitute for a tree

What you say is true, but it also true of, say, shooting marbles.
Shooting marbles is a subjective experience, you cannot receive the skill of shooting marbles the way you receive knowledge and understanding from talking about something. You have to actually shoot marbles yourself.
Still, we can talk about shooting marbles and gain an understanding. It is not the same as shooting marbles, but it is better than not knowing about marbles.

Truth can be (some would say, is) paradoxical.
Talking about Zen can also be dangerous. Is there anything more dangerous than an open mind?
I will not stop talking about Zen just because it is dangerous, nor because it is paradoxical. This does make the discussion more difficult, but we do not seek Zen because it is easy.

There are concepts associated with Zen than can be initiated by the use of words. In the end, as you say, words will do no good, but in the beginning they may show the path. If you can’t find the path, you will never find the Way.

It is said that Zen is not the Way, not the path, but a finger pointing the way to the path.
If this is true, and I certainly believe it is, words can be the finger that points to Zen. You are warning us to not mistake the finger for the Zen and we would do well to heed that suggestion.

If we want Zen, we will not get it from talking about it. That is because Zen is an experience. Zen is not special in that respect. We can not experience any experience by talking about it. Discussing something is not a substitute for living it. I can not teach you how to ski by talking about it. However, I can give you understanding about problems you might encounter and tips to make things easier for you. There is value in preparation for the journey.
We all know that reading the map is not the same as taking the trip. That is what you have told us.



My intro book was Zen in the Art of Archery, by Eugen Herrigel. It hooked me good.
D.T. Suzuki and his various translated works worked well for me.
Lao Tzu often showed up in my readings and I always got a lot out of his stories.
I tend to read collected works with stories from the early Patriarchs (first millennium).
Baba Ram Dass is not strictly Zen, but fits in there somewhere.
I never got much out of Alan Watts and the Beat Zen.
Never connected with Thomas Merton either.

A special transmission outside the scriptures;
Depending not on words and letters;
Pointing directly to the human mind;
Seeing into one's nature, one becomes a Buddha.