Who came first -- Moses or Abraham?

The Iron Age was not started by the Israelites, as a close reading of the Bible will tell you. The Israelites (under Joshua or the Judges, I think) were not able to conquer strong cities which had iron swords and shields, as opposed to the Israelites who did not.

As to the rest, Moses is a mythical folk-hero, any historical research into whom is utterly futile. There is absolutely no archaeo-historical basis for choosing any one historical figure in Egypt or the Sinai or Palestine (Canaan) and saying, "This was Moses" than any other. There is not the slightest archaeological evidence for the presence of what we now call the Jews to be in Egypt at all during the great dynasties of the second millennium B.C.E.
There are grounds for supposing that the origin of the tale of the Exodus is to be found in telling a tale of contemporary significance but giving it an ancient historical background - the contemporary significance of the Slavery in Egypt and the Exodus to Canaan to Jews was, of course, the Exile in Babylon and the eventual return to Jerusalem, in the 6th Century BCE.

 

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Not true. There is ample evidence of Semitic settlements in exactly the place one would expect - in the land of Goshen. These settlements even show signs of a sudden abandonment after centuries of occupation - even quick, mass graves as if some catastrophe had befallen the inhabitants. However, until recently, these settlements were thought to be far too old to be the biblical Patriarchs since the exodus was thought to be under Rameses II and these settlements were centuries earlier. Thoughts are changing.

 

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Silas, the Bbile may be historical Documentation, but translation from Hebrew into Greek or English is not historical. I would believe a Historian over a translator.

But lets say "hypotheticly" that Historians and their evidence where somehow wrong and in fact Cannanites or Ammorites, whatever, invented it. WHen i was using Egyptian documentation on Kings i noticed one that had apparently been around at the start of the iron age. If the Cannanites did have iron, its would still help my theory that it was the 19th Dynasty when the Hebrews left Egypt. Rameses II was apart of that Dynasty I think (off memmory) so its "possible" but there are a lot of kings. ONe that i do not recall the name, was at a time of economic downcline. Guessing, this may be due to the Hebrews leaving.

 

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David F.: David wrote some of the Psalms but not all... Moses wrote Psalm 90.
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M*W: Interesting. I should go back and read Psalm 90.
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David F.: The name Moses was appearently a common name in Egypt, especially among the Pharoahs. It had special significance, since the river was sacred, to be drawn out of the river - something like being born from the river (baptised?). The trick is to find a Moses in Egypt which is actually the same as the Moses of Exodus.
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M*W: Yes, the name Moses seems to be popular in pharaonic Egypt. The sacred river connection to baptism is also food for thought. Although I've heard that some scholars believe the Exodus didn't happen, they've never found any evidence, maybe it wasn't an "exodus" per se. After all, they were nomads.
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David F.: Habiru is an Egyptian word which means "dusty ones" which was applied by the Egyptians to <i>all</i> nomadic tribes.
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M*W: I can imagine how dusty they might have been.
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David F.: There was something special about the tribe of Abraham which caused them to live a long time (there are records of Sumerian kings living hundreds of years but no one seems to believe them). It is true that the Egyptian life-span was shorter and it seems that those who lived in the Egyptian royal court had shorter life-spans (Moses and Joseph both had shorter life-spans than others in their immediate family). Perhaps there was something about the food, or the medical care, which caused them to die younger - of course in the case of Joseph, dieing younger still meant living to 110 and in the case of Moses, 120. This seems long to us but for an Isrealite which lived into the 130-140 range this was a significant shortening of his lifespan -20%. I particularly like the reaction of Joseph's pharoah when Joseph's father, Jacob, is brought in. Pharoah's reaction is "How old <i>are</i> you." and Jacob replies "The days of the years of my pilgrimage are an hundred and thirty years; few and evil have the days of the years of my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage." Jacob is actually upset by 130 years (he doesn't die for another 17 years). I sometimes think that Abraham and Isaac send their sons back home to Pandanaram for breeding purposes. They don't want their sons marrying these short-lived Caananites and Egyptians - they want them to marry the long-lived girls back home. In any case, their lifespan keeps getting shorter until David notes that men live to be 70-80. Wish I could remember where I read that Moses was 17 when the Exodus began and 30 when he died.
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M*W: I think the shorter lifespans of the Egyptians may have been the result of all that brother-sister, father-daughter inbreeding. Can you imagine the genetic defects? What about all the web-feet? Maybe they were naturally bred for water sports since both "Mo-ses" and "Mery-taten" were common names for 'brought out of the sea'. This rule applies to the Hebrews as well. What's in a name?
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David F.: Moses did not cross the Red Sea or the Reed Sea. This is a purposeful mis-translation. The correct translation is "the sea at the end [of the land]" They crossed on the land bridge at the tip of Sinai over to the Arabian Penensula (the land bridge is usually under about 20-30 feet of water, depending upon the tides) and Mt. Sinai is not on the Sinai penensula at all. Sinai has always been a part of Egypt so the 40 year sojourn could not have been on the peninsula. Mt. Sinai is known today as Jabal Al Lawz. All Muslims know this and the Saudi Kingdom guards the mount religiously. Even Paul says so in Gal 4:25. It seems only the Christians don't know where Mt. Sinai (Horeb) is.
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M*W: So, if Moses didn't cross either the Red or Sea of Reeds, could it be possible that the Exodus has been exaggerated?
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David F.: I had not heard that the Torah was written before Moses although it was certainly written before Akhenaten/Moses. Josephus, the Jewish historian, does seem to suggest that Moses had source material (two stone/brick pillars) written by Adam and Methusalah before the flood.
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M*W: The Torah may have been written much earlier than previously believed, and it may or may not have been written by Moses. The jury is still out on this as far as I know. Some say the story of Moses is entirely a myth and there was no Exodus. Other scholars pinpoint the dates of Moses and Akhenaten as well as the duplicity of their parentage. What I'm saying here is that Moses or other writer(s) wrote the Torah long before the end of the Exodus; for example, who wrote about Moses' death in Deuteronomy if Moses was already dead? And of course, Moses would have been buried in an unmarked grave to make archeological evidence impossible.

Moses rod and staff with the serpent symbol was typical in Egypt for a ruler, king or pharaoh. However, we need to take a look back at the Ark of the Covenant which, in all cases, alludes to an ancient battery in a box that could ignite a charge. In previous posts we've discussed the Ark, what it contained, how it was built, and what it could do. Moses' rod and staff with the serpent coiled around it is represented by the cadeuses. Ancient batteries have been found all over the world dating to the time of the Exodus. Inside these jars are rods and coils that had great and deadly power. The jars had to contain a type of acidic liquid like vinegar or even orange juice to make the charge work. The ancients thought this was God-in-a-Box, and they feared its power. I like to call the Ark "ancient jumper cables." The Ark could have been the igniting factor for the burning bush, and it could smite anyone who got too near to it. When the Exodites came up to the Red or Reed or other body of water, I would suspect that the Ark could have done some permanent damage to Pharaoh's army. I believe that Moses' rod and staff were part of the Ark or used in connection with the Ark.

There's also some symbolism between "mo-ses" taken from the water, "Mery-taten" taken from the water, John the Baptiser in water, Mary Magdalene "from the sea; a tower by the sea;" the apostles were called fishermen, and Jesus was called "a fisher of men," and was known to have walked on water.

All life comes from the sea. Water is necessary for life. There's a symbolic connection to all these water-bearing titles and names.

I tend to believe Moses may have been a real person, but then, Moses could be based on myth. The Armana letters should give us more information as they are deciphered. My personal belief, after researching into Moses as an Egyptian pharaoh, that there is no difference between the Egyptians and the Hebrews. They are one and the same. Therefore, there really is no difference between the Jews and Muslims if you go back far enough into their ancient history. Why, then, why is everybody divided today? This sect or that sect. This skin color, that skin color. This culture, that culture. This belief, that belief. This religion, that religion. If we go back far enough, I believe we would learn that there really is no difference in our humanity. We are all One, and any religion or religions that may have caused humanity's devisiveness should not be followed. When we get rid of all man-made religions (which they all are), we'll be united again as one human family.

 

I may have missed David saying that they did not cross. If you believe this, then get this...

its is a phanonam that the Red sea parts. It has been witnessed many times. In fact we can recreate the even, on a much smaller scale though. This doesnt prove they went over the red sea, but possible, because God will bend the rules for us. Example:

There was never a drop of rain on Earth before the time of Noah. In fact the people of Mesomataimia or whatever that place is called, didnt even know what rain was. God sent the rains to flood the earth. From that point forward it rains consistant. This also, logicly, explains why rivers were important to civilization, at least before the flood. Because it was the "major" source of water. Irrigation was used to bring the river out further. This may have been invented before the flood and just reinvented afterwards...but this is all just logical opinion.