Fear of Egyptian evil New York Times foreign correspondent Anthony Shadid checks in from Cairo: There is a fear in the West, one rarely echoed here, that Egypt’s revolution could go the way of Iran’s, when radical Islamists ultimately commandeered a movement that began with a far broader base. But the two are very different countries. In Egypt, the uprising offers the possibility of an accommodation with political Islam rare in the Arab world — that without the repression that accompanied Mr. Mubarak’s rule, Islam could present itself in a more moderate guise. Egypt’s was a revolution of diversity, a proliferation of voices — of youth, women and workers, as well as the religious — all of which will struggle for influence. Here, political Islam will most likely face a new kind of challenge: proving its relevance and popularity in a country undergoing seismic change. “Choosing a regime will become the right of the people,” Ali Abdel-Fattah, a Muslim Brotherhood leader, said Saturday. “The nature of the regime will be decided by elections. And I think Egyptians agree on the demands and how to realize them.” Of countries in the region, only Turkey has managed to incorporate currents of political Islam into a system that has so far proven viable, but its bold experiment remains unfinished. The rest of the region is strewn with disasters, from the ascent of the most militant strands in Iraq after the American invasion to the rise of populist and combative movements in the Palestinian territories and Lebanon that emerged under Israeli occupation. In Egypt, repression of its Islamic activists helped give rise to the most extremist forces in the Muslim world — leadership of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and an insurgency against its own government in the 1990s. But at its core the revolt that finally toppled Mr. Mubarak had a very different set of demands. Its organizers rallied to broad calls for freedom, social justice and a vague sense of nationalism that came together over a belief that distant and often incompetent rulers had to treat the opposition with respect. The demands were voiced by youth, women, workers and adherents of revived currents of liberalism, the left and Arab nationalism, spread by social networks made possible by new technology. The Muslim Brotherhood, a mainstream group that stands as the most venerable of the Arab world’s Islamic movements, is of course also a contender to lead a new Egypt. It has long been the most organized and credible opposition to Mr. Mubarak. But is also must prepare to enter the fray of an emerging democratic system, testing its staying power in a system ruled by elections and the law. In Hosni Mubarak's dusty wake there came, at least among Western commentators, vast discussion of what happens next. This is a natural question that some have been asking throughout; some even went so far as to suggest that Mubarak should remain in power because Egyptians, being Muslims, could not be trusted with democracy. Shadid reports that, as some others suggested, this is not an Islamic revolution of thirty years ago. The question remains whether, upon deposing one tyrant, the Egyptian people will be seduced by another. This is always a dangerous time. The Americans nearly forfeit their own revolution in the early days, first with the weak Articles of Confederation that could not effectively govern the new nation, and then with the Constitution, which specifically through its three-fifths compromise, rejected the Declaration of Independence. The French nearly destroyed their own revolution with waves of terror and vendetta that even saw Thomas Paine sentenced to death. The Russian Revolution spent over seventy years imploding. Hitler railed against his own government, scrabbled to power, and turned Germany into a legendary monster. Mao's Great Leap Forward killed millions. Revolutions fail more often than they succeed. The challenges facing the Egyptian people today are tremendous. But they have shown that, without question, they are willing to take this risk; the world owes them its best faith in the coming days. ____________________ Notes: Shadid, Anthony. "Egypt's Path After Uprising Does Not Have to Follow Iran's". The New York Times. February 13, 2011; page A1. NYTimes.com. February 12, 2011. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/world/middleeast/13islam.html
Yet the truth still remains that no opposition to Mubarak was greater then the totality of the Egyptian people's will, and the Muslim Brotherhood has been years at understanding what the Tunisian's have accomplished overnight. That this is not a religious revolt. This stems from something closer to the population than religion.
Two points which struck me as important 1. The revolutionaries left their arms at home. 2. The army refused to massacre the people. Another interesting perspective from kabobfest:
i didnt mean under a one goverment, or country, more like, a union, but each country stays that country, and each have it's own goverment
. honor killing what? i will not answer, talking to you is uselss... have a nice day...and let your islamophobia away of me, i have nothing to do with you
. oon the way! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! consider it don, so, who's next? well, i'm affraid if it become bloody in algeria they lost 1.5 million to get their independence
well, great! the n°1, i think that may avoid a blood bath Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
It does no good to pretend that Honor Killings do not happen in many countries of the Muslim world. I am not asserting that this is condoned by Islamic teachings. In fact I suspect it is forbidden, but don't know. Certainly killings of passion take place in the US but rarely, if ever, does a brother kill his sister to preserve "family honor." I assumed that in urban Egypt honor killing were seldom done and was asking for information if that was also the case in rural Egypt. Some outrageous things do occur under Sari law. For example, about two months ago in Bangladesh, a 12 year old girl had sex with a married man - essentially she was raped. She was judged by the Sari laws court and sentenced to receive 60 lashes, instead of being stoned, because of her age. Three days later in the hospital she died from internal injuries. Of course the man was not punished in anyway. The girl probably had too short a skirt on, so was solely responsible, etc. Your "head in the sand" refusal to discuss and condemn these practices does not bring honor to you. You seem intelligent and part of the modern world, so you should be speaking out against such things, not pretending they do not happen.
Or of the Christian world, where they may be called crimes of passion or of the non-Christian non-Muslim world, where they have their own local names. e.g. The problem is pretending that it happens only in Muslim countries. Or that is something radically different from women being killed for adultery in western countries or black men being lynched for associating with white women.
I did not do that, nor did I say it was Islamic teaching (said it was not, AFAIK): But there is a difference between what is a "crime of passion" and a family's decision that someone much kill the errant daughter to restore the family honor. Also, fortunately, blacks are no longer lynched in the US for being romantic connected with a white woman. TV and wealthy sports blacks have done a lot to end that, with inter-racial couples. Even books, like To kill a mocking bird have transformed the US from this shameful past. That is why I am unhappy with Shadow1, who seems to want to pretend there is no problem, instead of help correct it. Now that you have brought India into the discussion, even worse, IMHO, is the not rare "divorce by accidental cooking fire" after the diary has been collected. As I understand it 1000s of Indian brides die each year this way.
. yes, we don't have those somehow "relegion" problems in my country, so yeah, it's not in my prioreties
. refusal? do you know why i don't want to discuss, because i already know your answers, anyway, i will discuss
From your cite: Does your source make any distinction among the religious backgrounds or cultures of the offenders? Or do you take this on assumption here?
If you read the article carefully, you'll find that where those crimes are not reported as honor killings, they still occur. They are simply called something else, domestic violence or crimes of passion or whatever
A true crime of passion, usually takes place promptly. If delayed by days is not one. It may happen that some man has been ejected by "his" woman in favor of another and he kills one or both later, but this is more like the considered mental process of a bank robber - not passion - but calculated revenge (or in the bank robber's case, effort to gain) Likewise, as I understand it, few brother immediately kill their sister when leaning she has "sinned" (That would be a "crime of passion.") - There is usually a family discussion first, perhaps even a drawing of lots between several brothers to see who must do the job.
. no it's not in the islamic teaching, in islam, you can only kill, if you really really had too, like self defence in extreme cases, or by law, to kill who killed an innocent (inless it was an exeption or something; like an isane person) and killing thefemale of the family to preserve the family honor, was before islam, in the arabia, and islam forbidded that, and all kind of killing, even killing an animal for no reason, like for fun or whatever, is forbidden, also arraching or killing a plant for no reason, also forbidden, during hajj, a muslim must never kill anything, even a bug. huh? and what sharia is that?? let me introduce to you the sharia. (p.s.: stoning, is forbiddden, many imams say that, and also with proofs from quran) here's a few cases. a woman cheated on her husband, while her husband was good with her, never cheated on her, fair and care about her, then she get punished (the court judges will decide what punishement, and depends on what kind of cheating is that, also, the husband, can just devorce if he want, and don't tell about her, so they don't judge her, means forgive her, or solve their problems and etc... not like they will put a camera following you to see when you cheated) a woman cheated on her husband while her her husband, wasn't fair to her, didnt care about her, and did satestfy her, ignoring her it means, so she cheated on him (if by sex) they will both get punished, the husband for not caring of he's wife, and the wife for doing that, and if not cheat by sex, depends the case, the sharia laws have alot of cases and expetions, what makes it hard to apply, and letme insure you, there, is, no muslims country today, that apply the sharia laws, even if it call it so, it's not, sharia laws is not like, you do, what ever are your conditions, you get that, no not like that as you see. a person stole something, he was poor and had to steal, he's hand don't get cuted, but he will get supported. a person stole something, and he wasn't in need, then he's hand shall be cuted, and he can give what he stole back and avoid that if the person that he stole from him forgive him. if a woman get raped: no it's not her who will get punished, but who rapped her, punished by 99 lashes. who kill, an innocent, he shall be killed, (if he killed in self defence, he will not get punished, if he killed while he was defending someone, or defending he's country, he don't get punished) jihad= jihad can be in school (to study hard), in work (to work hard), in family (to work hard and take care of the family), j,to defend your country, to protest to free your country, to fight to save people, to try to help people, jihad=to strugle, jihad, this beautifull word with so many meaning, have been polluted by western medias. and i'm sorry for what happened to that girl.
So in a crime of passion, a person who is otherwise sane suddenly becomes a different person capable of violence and murder? Sounds like an excuse to me. Most crimes of passion are committed by men who consider women their property. Same as domestic violence, same as honour killings. After all, we have only the criminals word for his "temporary insanity" syndrome. After the Napoleanic code was overturned in France, "crimes of passion" disappeared, how?
