What Would Have Made The Allies Lose WWII?

Discussion in 'History' started by Omega133, May 19, 2010.

  1. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    No worries i knew what you meant.

    But contracted through America or not most of the equipment, was built in Canada. and R&D was shared between the company as a whole by both Canadian and American engineers, scientists etc.

    If Canada buys a new Contract from any of these companies, it is through there Canadian Firms, Built by Canadians, Not there Origin American firm.

    Canada is one of the very few Nations that have such a close relation With the USA, when it comes Military R&D, which is one of the few reasons why Canada's armed forces can keep up and maneuver so easily with the Americans.
     
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  3. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    They have access to the entire database of their Canadian firms, and they participate in Canadian Military R&D. That means they will know the entire specifications of almost all of our aircraft build by Canadian subsidiaries of American firms, classified or not. That means they know more about us then us about them. Here is an example:

    ATD-X is built by Mitsubishi AND Lockheed Martin, that does not mean it is build just by USA, it is USA and Japan, because Mitsubishi is involved. Mitsubishi F-2 same scenario. Mitsubishi is obviously NOT an American firm, but Boeing Canada is a subsidiary of an American firm so is Lockheed Martin.
     
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  5. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    I have to go to sleep now, I will talk about it more tomorrow.
     
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  7. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    How about you pretend it's happening right now and get the fuck out now.
     
  8. OriginalBiggles OriginalBiggles, Prime Registered Senior Member

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    Shogun #128,
    When you write; "For eastern Russian territory, you meant Manchuria? The Soviets beat them back."..........are you referring to my point below?

    They had occupied vast tracts of eastern Russia at the behest of their European Allies during WW1.
    If so, I believe you are wrong. refers to what the Japanese called The Siberian Intervention of 1917.
    Japan had for long cast envious eyes on the untapped riches of Siberia and was seriously considering taking advantage of Russia's weakened position from war against the Central Powers and Lenin's return to foment revolution.

    These events in western Russia left no military resources to defend the vast steppes of Eastern Siberia and the city-port of Vladivostok.
    The British and French governments since 1915 had invited Japan to send troops from the east to begin an attack from that direction, on the vulnerable eastern side of the Western Front and to combat the spread east of the revolutionary red armies.

    On 8 July 1918 the USA suggested to Japan a joint intervention in Siberia. Its principal purposes were [a] to aid 300,000 Austrian, German, Bulgarian, and Turkish prisoners of war being held in Siberian prison camps who obviously would join the Red Army to gain their freedom, to gain control over and repatriate an army of 50,000 Czech soldiers who had surrendered to Russia in the hope of repatriation and once there to liberate their nation from the crumbling Austro-Hungarian Empire, [c] to retrieve the stockpile of Allied war supplies in Vladivostok.

    In late August, 30,000 IJA troops were marching north through Manchuria [with China's permission] and into Russia. The move was unpopular at home, and with its ally the USA who was disturbed by the rapidity of the move and the number of troops. The USA sent 7,000 troops to keep watch on the IJA and each national contingent set about setting up a succession of short lived White Russian puppet regimes. These regimes blackened themselves through the wanton rape, pillage and murder perpetrated upon the native Siberians by their Cossack troops. The Japanese massacred several Siberian villages in retaliation for opposition and terrorism.

    The Anglo/US/Canadian contingents were revulsed by the duties they were called upon to perform and between late 1918 and April 1920 all occupying troops were withdrawn, except the IJA. Left to their own devices, the IJA ruled vast areas of eastern Siberia by their own laws. The Czech army was repatriated during that year. But the 300,000 POWs were fotgotten until the International Red Cross finally came to their rescue. 100,000 had died of starvation and disease and many more died during and after repatriation.

    The IJN remained in Siberia until 1922. They went home after all the peace conferences and dispositions were settled and no longer were of an advantage in place.

    The Soviets did not beat them back.

    The Japanese claim that the islands north of Japan is theirs.

    This is a somewhat inconsequential statement. A reading of the Wkipedia article at;
    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute> will show clearly the history of the Russo/Japanese dispute over this territory. Despite Japan's penchant for revisionism, the dispute is alive and well with Russia. Japan claims only the two main southern islands as being part of her Northern Territories, Etorofu [Uturup] and Kunashiri [Kunashir] plus the smaller islands of Shikotan and Habomai. But Russia claims even these islands by right of conquest in WW2.

    To quote Wikipedia; "The dispute over the Kuril Islands was further exacerbated on July 16, 2008, when the Japanese government published new school textbook guidelines directing teachers to say that Japan has sovereignty over the Kuril Islands." Now whether this means sovereignty over the islands mentioned above or the entire Kurils, I have no idea as I have not acquired a copy of the text book. This tactic by Japan is typical of her imperative to rewrite history, particularly as it applies to WW2.

    I have a National Geographic map dated Dec.1959 [three years after the Treaty of San Francisco] which shows the entire Kuril archipelago as Russian territory except for Shikotan and Habomai.

    In Japan Standard Time it was actually 12:00 noon August 15th.

    This was the time that the emperor's recorded voice was broadcast to the Japanese public from NHK studios in Tokyo. The Voice of the Crane was advising his subjects that
    "We have ordered Our Government to communicate with the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union that Our empire accepts the provisions of their Joint Declaration."(1)

    As in (1) I quote from BEHIND JAPAN'S SURRENDER The Secret Struggle That Ended an Empire by Lester Brooks lst ed. 1968 top of p.297;

    "The text was then passed on to the Printing Bureau for publication. It was set and printed as an extra of the Official Gazette at 11:00pm. and this time [the 23rd hour of the 14th day of the 8th month of the 20th year of the reign of Showa] became the official termination point of the Pacific War for Japan."
    The text mentioned here is the text of the Emperor's pronouncement to his people. It was spoken by the emperor in the courtly language of Kanbun which was not fully comprehensible to many Japanese.

    There was no large rebellion, there were Japanese holdouts in the Pacific Islands that refused to surrender.
    I suggest you consult the above book.
    As well you will find ample evidence of how crucial was each hour of the 24 between noon 14 Aug. and noon 15 Aug. 1945. An excellent chronology is accessed in JAPAN'S LONGEST DAY compiled by a group of Japanese historians and journalists of The Pacific War Research Society and published by Kodansha International 1981.
    Other invaluable sources are JAPAN'S IMPERIAL CONSPIRACY by Paul Bergamini and HIROHITO AND THE MAKING OF MODERN JAPAN by Herbert Bix.
    _____________________________________

    We seem to share a deep interest in the history of this time. I appreciate having the opportunity of exchanging information and interpretations.
    Do you have much of a library on the subject of the Pacific War ?

    Biggles, Prime
     
  9. OriginalBiggles OriginalBiggles, Prime Registered Senior Member

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    From Omega133's post #70

    “ Originally Posted by soullust
    aww They Played a minor role compared to the USA, in the pacific, but were allies, for a reason, and we are unstopable as a team, we were then and we are today.

    Relatively minor, agreed.
    But there was a fair-sized British naval contingent, (and 100% of the Free French battleships )


    And from Omega133's post #71

    The British were a major help in the Pacific.

    I find these observations somewhat curious and wonder if Omega might substantiate his assertions about a fair-sized British naval contingent and how they were a major help in the Pacific

    The Free French navy is difficult to find in the Pacific as well.

    Biggles, Prime
     
  10. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    That was me (in post #69), not Omega.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pacific_Fleet
    17 carriers, four battleships, 11 cruisers...

    That was a slight joke: the Free French, by that stage of the war, only had the one battleship - which did serve with the British Eastern Fleet (East Indies) and took part in Operation Cockpit. The Richelieu.

    Meh, okay, my geography may be failing me: that op was as much Indian Ocean as it was Pacific. What the hell, it's all "over there somewhere".

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  11. Omega133 Aus der Dunkelheit Valued Senior Member

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    I would just like to say that the point of this thread is WWII. How we got on USA vs Canada is beyond me. If you wish to debate it further, start a new thread. And use this one to discuss WWII.
     
  12. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know neither, but i mentioned a jet and they called me out on it.

    And yall know i won't back down

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  13. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    Okay, okay, you said World War I, I thought World War II, my bad. You are right, they did fight against the Red Army in the civil war. In World War II, they attacked the USSR and they beat them back, thy then gave up Siberia. In World War II, Manchuria was not used with China's permission, it was invaded and a puppet government and Emperor was installed. There was no large rebellion, but you are right about it being one of the most important days of Japan's history, the transformation from an Empire to a democracy. It was the first time that the Emperor himself had to surrender and declare that he is not a kami ( divine being ) and he is just a mortal. It hurt Japan's pride quite a bit ( understatement ), and it shook the foundations of the Nationalized Shinto. Not everybody accepted the truth, there were Japanese holdouts in the Pacific that refused to surrender and there was Japanese that went into self-exile and didn't hear about the defeat until much later. The Emperor himself broke the Bushido by surrendering. They said that they have to go to the ceremony with their heads held high, because it is not the end, but the beginning of a new Japan. However, there is no large rebellion in Tokyo. The Japanese Forces in Southeast Asia did not surrender until September. Japanese pride was greatly hurt by the surrender. The surrender was the beginning of a democracy.
     
  14. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    Canada is a great place to live, but we have our weakness, which is our military. The Art of War stated that if we know all our weaknesses and our strengths and those of our enemies, we will win all of our battles, if we know only our own weakness and strengths we will win half of our battles, if we don't know our weaknesses and our strengths nor do we know our enemy's strengths and weaknesses we will win none of our battles. It might not necessarily be literally true these days, but the philosophy is important. Good thing we got good allies and neighbors that will protect us.
     
  15. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    I think the same thing happened to the Yamato thread. If turned to USA vs Canada.
     
  16. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    All I can say, is if you want to say our millitary sucks, Which include our soilders. say it to ourboys on the front lines, and if you want to discrace them. you really shouldn't be A Canadian.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH-CbHceH5U
     
  17. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    All I can say is our leadership sucks, the soldiers are the victims, the ones carrying the burdens. We shouldn't be minding everyone else' business if we are weak ourselves, we need to be stronger then we can mind other people's business. We can't afford to have troops deployed world wide like the USA.
     
  18. soullust Registered Senior Member

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  19. Omega133 Aus der Dunkelheit Valued Senior Member

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    Again, we are dicussing WWII, not Canada's military power. Create another thread to take this to.
     
  20. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    Listen Omega..

    I will punch you

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    But yeah I agree sir.
     
  21. Omega133 Aus der Dunkelheit Valued Senior Member

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    That would be a long and costly drive/plane ride just to punch me.
     
  22. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    lol.

    It's only worthless paper sir.
     
  23. Omega133 Aus der Dunkelheit Valued Senior Member

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    Not when it buys pretty much everything.
     

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