What published scientific evidence proves HIV causes AIDS?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by geistkiesel, Feb 14, 2005.

  1. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

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    1,793
    This thread is asking for published scienific documentation that HIV causes AIDS.

    Well you could start by checking out the relationship between HIV, CD4 counts and AIDS.
    CD4 starts dropping within about 6 weeks of primary HIV infection, the mechanism for this is well known. When CD4 hits the 200 mark your entering AIDS city.

    There are many articles that demonstrate this relationship all you have to do is go find them.

    What were you expecting?
    I guess you were looking for an article entitiled "Proof that HIV causes AIDS!"
    If so your gonna be disappointed. Science just isn't that easy.

    Have fun!
    Dee Cee

    Oh just found this if your interested...

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    Although reliable clinical data are available for only the past 12 years, it is predicted that approximately 95% of HIV-1-infected patients will progressively develop AIDS within 15 years of infection. The first few weeks after primary infection are characterized by an acute mononucleosis or flu-like illness. During this stage seroconversion usually occurs and is associated with a rapid increase in circulating viral titers. This is followed by virus dissemination to lymphoid organs. Adaptive host immunity, including neutralizing antibodies and cytotoxic T lymphocytes (CTL) against virus-infected cells, subsequently develops. While these responses may temporarily control the infection, generally they are unable to eliminate the virus. The patient then enters the stage of clinical latency or the asymptomatic period. A progressive decrease in CD4+ peripheral blood lymphocytes (PBL) continues during the latency stage. When CD4 counts fall below 200/mm3, the disease usually enters a symptomatic phase, characterized by opportunistic infections and other AIDS-defining conditions.

    Clin Diagn Lab Immunol. 1999 May; 6(3): 295–305.
     
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  3. geistkiesel Valued Senior Member

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    I am familiar with the condition you described which proves nothing because for one reason the test for AIDS is a test for a protein segment that is common in a number of diseases unassociated with AIDS. The fact that HIV is supposed to hibernate such that the the expected time form infection to manifest symptoms has been growing since data has been collected. First it styarted ouit as 6 months latency, the 2 yearsm 3,4, 5 . . .15 you rgraph says the latency period is ~ 15 years.

    You convince me then. From what you just stated above. Is the data taken in its most liberal interpretation sufficient to establish the unambiguois causal chain linking HIV and the etiology of AIDS?If so break it down.
    Gallo's papers in 1983 -4(?) made such a claim . Gallo's published papers made he bold face claim that indeed the bug that caused AIDS had neem found. In fact Dr. Margaret Heckler Secretary of HH&S stood on the steps of the health and Hunman Services Buiding and announced to the world that the virus that causes AIDS had been found and she then predicted a vaccine would be available in ' 2 years".(Clinton predicted a vaccine, "within 10 year " a few months before the end of his secnf=d term) before the end of the business day Gallo had filed for a patent for the testing of HIVl ater contested by Luc Montaignier claiming Gallo m,sused the sample Montaingier sent Gallo for analysis. Gallo claimed he used Montaigner's sample without using PCR. which proved to be a lie. Montaignier's published paper was laughable, read it, and Montasigier di dnot make a specific claim that the putative pathogen had been observed . gallo did hthat regarding Montaignier's aper.

    L Montaignier also included an electron-micro-grpahs a photograph ostensibly showing evidence of HIV, which Montiabngier confessed years later was only inserted in the published paper for educational purposes. Montaignier stated that they looked and looked for evidence of HIV and found none.
    The dispute over patent rights between Gallo and Miontaignier re @ from the pateents was resolved by Pres. Regean and Pres. Chirac of France to avoid bitter acrimony9crucial times nd all that, too sensitve for public consumption, tends to diminish confidence in the Governments ability to fight the war on aids.) between the warring scienists. from becoming public.

    Now DC you said that science isn't that easy like what is easy? How does science act?
    I saw a taped statement by anthony Fauci Director of the NIH's National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) wax convincingly how AIDS was the most researched disease in hiostory, how the expertise of the highly intelligent and professional researchers were so careful and exact and that there was aboslutely no doubt that HIV caused AIDS etc..
    If it is so clear and unambiguous to Fauci and whoever he represents, it is a slam dunk easiest research project ever to have some lab asistant of intern go through Fauci's files and get a dozen papers, or one even that the NIH would hold up to public scrutiny as the proof that HIV causes AIDS and thereby provide justification for the massive AIDS program of the US Governemnt that is based on the assumption that HIV causes AIDS.

    Is this an unreasonable request? Cost free, just point to the documentation that is published that proves the claims that are so forcfully presented to the public, mush like DC here..

    Now again DC, Science isn't as easy as what? as holding the aithorities to their claims and have them, prove what they say? 'not easy huh? Luc Montaignier, Robert gallo, Anthony Fauci, like these scientists?

    The abstract is a "mere claim" and is not scientific document it is a brief outline of the paper is supposed to contain, it is a blurb a summary. Didn't you know this?

    It looks impressive desn't it. Point to the proof that HIV causes AIDS, or point to the proof that HIV is the putative pathogen in yhe etiology of AIDS, It is you evidence so please point to the points on the graph that proves what supports your belief. After all that is the way sience is isn it?

    DeeCee make it easy on both of us. I have been looking for over 15 years. Then you come along and say try this and what about this? Of you have proof that HIV causes AIDS and a you are a scientist with the talent, ability to read, understand and communicate what you offer as proof, go the extra mile and spread your proof out on the table and convince us. All you need is the requisite desire.

    This way we wont be wasting each other's time and ending up in exchanges of droll,useless and cheap ad hominem s



    Geistkiesel
     
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  5. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    You accused another of being a fraud. Why are you fraudulently misinterpreting what is written?
    You say above: "the latency period is ~ 15 years"
    Yet the abstract cleary stipulates that AIDS develops within 15 years of infection.
    Either you are deliberately, that is fraudulently, misinterpreting the information presented to imply an inconsistency that is not real. Or, you are unable to properly understand what you are reading. Either explanation would account for your bizarre stance on this issue.
    So, geist, which is it? Charlatan or fool.
     
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  7. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    Geistkisesel is perhaps unaware that Dee Cee works in a hospital.
     
  8. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

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    There are a number of knowledgeable and well-credentialed people in this thread, and other threads, who have tried to reason with this nutball. But no amount of knowledge can defeat this extent of agenda-laden deliberate ignorance.

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    <P>
     
  9. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    This would make even more sense in its truncated form:
    Geistkisesel is perhaps unaware
     
  10. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

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    1,793
    Well Well...

    What exactly is our point of dispute geistkiesel?
    Are you suggesting that the HIV is not implicated in the CD4 count or are of the belief that CD4 counts are in no way related to immune response? Please clarify.

    As was pointed out I work in a hospital in the area Respiratory medicine. I'm not a virologist nor a philosopher of the scientific method. There are only so many hours in the day. I am a busy man and as such practice my art pragmatically.
    Treatments based on the 'assumption' of a causal relationship between HIV and AIDS improve both quality and duration of life. A fact confirmed by my peers, my patients, the literature and not least 20 years of personal experience of clinical practice.
    That's good enough for me.

    Now it's my experience that individuals such as yourself who decry the currently established 'facts' almost always have an alternative point of view.
    If your not happy with the science I can understand but I suspect that you have theories of your own that your just itching to get on and tell us.
    Go ahead make my day.

    BTW God forbid but should you ever test positive would you accept the treatments offered or would you refuse them? They are, after all, derived from 'false' assumptions.

    Herc

    I know what your saying but sometimes I just can't help myself.
    It's a vocation

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    Dee Cee
     
  11. geistkiesel Valued Senior Member

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    Our dispute is non existenet actually as my only intention here is to determine the published scientific evidence for the existence of HIV and its place in the causal chain in the etiology AIDS, if any.

    There is no proof that HIV or any organic entity is the cause of he variation in CD4v count. I am not knowledgeable to answer whether CD4 is related to the immune system being eroded as a causastive factor , a symptomatic factor, or what.. The CD4 count may be a marker for the diseased immune system, like brown stained (cigarette) fingers my be a marker for lung canser.
    whoopeefor you. trust in he system right? After all who is paying the bills?

    And this is pragmatism? You sound proud of your 'too busy to research life
    syle' Too busy treating sick people to read the journals, correct?
    If you see elephants in the cloud formation, well that good enough for me. too.

    Can you provide your observation of thany dramatic additions to opportunistic diseases in AIDS patients in the 1987 -1989?
    You and I have been reading different literature. But then you are making a statement based on personal observation. I would only caution you that youre paragraph just written is characterized as . .what is that word meaining nonstatstically supported, rumor, hearsay ... in the literatutere?
    From CDC data early on the pool of persons diagnosed at AIDS risk are,
    60%gay males between the ages of 20 -45, wiwth a chronic drug lifestyle, histpries of frequest medical needs re antibiotics who practices frequent sexual activity with hundreds of pratners/year, 30% intravenous drug addicts, 10% spread over the general population. Per research of Root-Berstein who researched female prostitutes founding significant AIDS related (HIV pos+) prostitutes in chronic drug life styles only. Africal AIDS is shared equally in males and females, though their opportunistic diseases is confined primarily to lyme diisease and diarrhea. I recognize that AIDS testing an medical procatices are not available to all who suffer, but the gross distortion in male/female ratio and opportunistic diseases observed place the African AIDS cases scientifically into separate causal channels. European AIDS follows the US statistics within a few % pts. I want to avoid inserting ang political or buraucratic parameters here so I will restrict myself to statements by A Fauci that the drug connection "was considered: and rejeced and that there was and is no budget intended to look at the "chronic drug life style scenario" but it is an undeniable fact that no US $ goes to the "drug connection"
    AIDS testing is ambiguous and flawed with many errors:No recogizable standards, the test is for a protein segment arbirtraily characterized as having originated with being part of the virus fold, or housing. The testing program is fraught with false positives and negatives with little policing.
    I don't know what causes AIDS, I do know every medical professional I have talked to has been unable to indicate any studies proving HIV existing. Some have vaguely referred to Gallo , no one has mentioned Luc Montaignier at Le Institute De Louis Pateur du Paris who fraudulently asserted in his published paper in 1982(?) twhen he included the phony electron micrograph in the published paper "for educational reasons" and that at the time of his resaearch they"looked and looked " but could find no virus. Have you ever isolated HIV to the exclusion opf all other organic matter in the universe? Have you ever performed, or cinducted a Koch process of measureent?
    Have you read Montaignier's and Gallos's papers (4) the following year (1983 84 sic.
    I would use every bit of power, energy and force, excepting no defense mechansm as extreme ,should any force be used againt me the slightest force, including extortion or threats to my seelf or loved wasm intended to force me to submit to any maunstream AIDS therapy on my person. I woulrd reacto that attempt to do violence against my person to any member of any institution that I deemed responsible such forced medication I would use any violent activity without the slightest qualms of inflicting peripheral damage to those related in any manner whatever to the he medical staff atending my therapy" agaisnt those forces encroching on my person..
    Do you read me, boy?
    OK now we have a dispute you incompetent prick - go fuck yourself .
    Is there anything you would die to protect in your white uniformed and
    organized killing house? Hospital , you kill in a hospital don't you?

    Geistkiesel
     
  12. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

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    1,793
    Gotta be brief. Life calls...

    Too busy treating sick people to read the journals, correct?

    and juggling the budget....
    I meet my responsibilities my practice is current and credible by the standards of my peers.
    The public demand 'value for money' healthcare so to some degree I conceed your point.

    I would use every bit of power, energy and force, excepting no defense mechansm as extreme ,should any force be used againt me the slightest force, including extortion or threats to my seelf or loved wasm intended to force me to submit to any maunstream AIDS therapy on my person. I woulrd reacto that attempt to do violence against my person to any member of any institution that I deemed responsible such forced medication I would use any violent activity without the slightest qualms of inflicting peripheral damage to those related in any manner whatever to the he medical staff atending my therapy" agaisnt those forces encroching on my person..

    Gosh!

    Do you read me, boy?

    I read you. I would have read you even quicker if you had just said 'No'

    Is there anything you would die to protect in your white uniformed and organized killing house?

    No, nothing. One of my housemen did contract pulmonary TB a couple of years back though.. I doubt he did it intentionally however.
    BTW they make me wear a suit now.

    Hospital , you kill in a hospital don't you?

    Yes we do and thats my load. Fancy carrying a share of the burden or do you just sit on the sidelines and bitch?

    I'll get back to you on the clinical side. It is Friday night after all.
    Dee Cee
     
  13. zyncod Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    87
    All right - the AIDS therapy is out. How about inoculation with HIV, prick? I work in a lab immediately adjacent to one where they work with HIV and could definitely come by some virus for you. And in case you're afraid that this virus causes some minor symptoms unrelated to AIDS, I'd be willing to pay you a thousand dollars (no sh*t). If the answer is no, then shut up and get off this forum. And by the way, I would almost be willing to give you a thousand dollars if you know what the CD4 receptor actually does.
     
  14. geistkiesel Valued Senior Member

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    2,471
    I don't think you would have received my answer to your question, you would have received your answer to your question. if I had simply said "No".

    No family, friends, loved ones, cointry, justice " No passions of life and death?
    Burden of what? Admistering poison to AIDS victims?
    We all have our crosses to bear, but like Jesus on his way to Golgotha, I have someone else carrying mine.


    I am not bitching you incompetent prick,(yet competent in the eyes of your peers). that's the standard is it? You whack someone and the peers gather around an acquit you for your deft staying within the limits. and when the peer group is corrupted by common ignorance - no scientific publication proves a causal relationship between HIV and AIDS - your peers argue instead: "Oh yes there is scientific evidence", but the folder holding public documented proof of the peer's claim iis empty, the folder of justification is always empty. So what?, right? DeeCee "believes", he needs no proof, now that his blood splattered whites were traded for a suit of [promotion or demotion?] gray.

    You wince at my bitching while you must suffer in the trenches. You would have made a great Vietnam Veteran, crying that while they are fighting the enemies of freedom and peace, the long haired hippy freaks are sitting back, getting loaded and "bitchin'.

    Why do the educated elite always consider their generation as the ones who have come through the smoke and fire of historical ignorance as witnessed by their professor's lectures . The one I liked best is the on going claim that Newtonian and Quantum Nechanics theory have shown the fallacy of naked Aristotelianism,
    Geistkiesel
     
  15. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    4,089
    So Geistkiesel personally knows DeeCee and has evidence that he has killed people? You know, you can get sued for making statements like you have just done.

    As for your claim about Aristotelianism, yes, it was demonstrated to be inadequate over 80 years ago. Note I said inadequate, not wrong. You probably dont get the difference.
     
  16. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Who did you lose geistkeissel?
     
  17. geistkiesel Valued Senior Member

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    I do not argue biological technicalities. I only ask directions to public published proof of HIV AIDS causalitty.

    However, Papadopulos, Turner et al might have something of interest to you ire CD4 counts in the following. "Genetica 96 : 5-24, 1995


    "A critical analysis of the HIV=T4 Cell HIV-AIDS Hypothcisis."
    Geisttkiesel
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2005
  18. geistkiesel Valued Senior Member

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    2,471
    "Any mans death diminishes me as I am involved in mankind".


    How about you Ophi, did you lose any one? And why the fuck do I have to have any reason at all to ask for proof that HIV causes AIDS? Especially when asking the NIH ,the National Institute of Health, a sub-unit of the US States Governrnment charged with implementing AIDS policy on a massive scale.Who has publiclly aasserted in thje strobgest dtamticall terms [possible that "HIV causes AIDS" Are you trying to stop or divert me from having or achieving access to that information? For what possible reason would you give a shit one way or the other? or to be so stpid? What reasonable purpose would have you to do such a thing?
    Angry people can't think can they Ophi?
    Or are you just curious, snooping, looking for something interesting to sharpen the blade on an oherwise dull and unimportant drudgery you call your life?

    On the possibility that I did lose someone, what does that have to do with looking for published scientific documentation establishing a causal connection re HIV and the etiology of AIDS? If I were emotionally impacted due to a loss of someone to AIDS does that negate the reasonableness of any person, or persons, merely asking for the fucking proof? Why don't you stay in the kitchen and cook victory cookies or something? But stay out of my way - I am not your escape artist who is here to free you from the contraints of your tedium.

    geistkiesel
     
  19. Idle Mind What the hell, man? Valued Senior Member

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    geist, when we are discussing molecular immunology, or molecular biology of any kind, please find recent papers. Something published in a no-name paper 10 years ago doesn't really have any relevance since the field as changed.

    Where did you even find that article? I have searched google and pubmed, and it doesn't come up in either.
     
  20. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

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    Just in case there were any lurkers who were giving Geistkiefool the benefit of the doubt and considered him/her anything other than a complete troll, here is final confirmation of his/her troll-ness (or mental illness maybe).

    After continually making demands such as.....

    .....the troll then turns around in the face of such evidence and says.....

    That’s funny. <img src="http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/laugh.gif">

    Is there a moderator for the Bio section that I can lobby to have this thread deleted?

    <small>(Hey geistkiesel, perhaps you could work up an angle that my request for the deleting of this thread means I’m part of the world-wide HIV/AIDS conspiracy.

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    )</small><P>
     
  21. zyncod Registered Senior Member

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    I noticed that there was no response to my (of course not serious) offer of inoculation with HIV. I really, really want you to explain this, geitwhatever. If AIDS etiology is not related to HIV, why would you have any problem with inoculation? Unless you are afraid that all scientists are out to destroy pre-post-humans.
    It is because of people like you that I have a problem working in my lab on cancer. I will be helping to save an equisitely perfect body at the cost of saving an utterly useless mind.
     
  22. geistkiesel Valued Senior Member

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    Just cite references. I am not here to argue with replies that make scientific claims.. If you have a reference or link present t it.

    To the world: If I have made anhy statements indicaing that I diosbelive the HOV = AODS claims, that is a true statement and I will make every attempt to avoid a direct confrontation with replies hat are ostensibly pro=HIV=AIDS theorits.

    Geisttkiesel

    Geistkliesel
     
  23. geistkiesel Valued Senior Member

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    I am asking for references to puiblished scintific documentaion that proves the causal relation between HIV and the etiolgy of AIDS.
    Why are you here with your stupidity?.
    Geistkiesel
     

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