What is the future for this people?

Blacks were prohibited by the legal and social sanctions that withheld capital, market opportunities, access to resources, and education from establishing business.

So all of the time that has gone past that we could have been building wealth, it was spent destroying us through the legal system.

We had over 100 black business district in Oklahoma in the 1920's with our own hospitals, banks, bus systems, and schools and the Ku Klux Klan burned it down by dropping bombs from planes and set afire the 36 blocks of black business.

We had the group economics principle with the Marcus Garvey movement in the 1930's where our dollars circulated within our communities; but the government lied on Marcus Garvey and sent him to prison and broke up his movement.

We had Elijah Muhammad in the 1960's with strong following, and he had businesses and land in which blacks worked and served other black people. We had land, business, and our own schools and eateries, barbershops, grocery stores, etc. Black people were strong and unified; but with COINTELPRO and governement tricks and lies we started to fall and we fell upon the death of Muhammad.

We had the Black Panthers in the 1970's promoting strong economic principles because it is WELL KNOWN within our people that we have to practice the economics of wealth and we need numerical power and wealth power combinations and we have been doing that in our communities in the past and it has WORKED. As a people we have over 100 billion dollars within ourselves but we are so scattered that if we put all of our dollars together we could be stronger than whole nations.




Remember: I AM NOT PASSING BLAME,,: What I am saying is that our people know this and have known this. You can ask any black man or woman that have lived in the 60's and 70's and they will tell you that we had businesses and our money circulated within ourselves. We were strong and unified back then , and we have the potential to do this today.

This is not racism. I am not talking racism. We can have all types of people buy from us and our people can buy from anyone they can. But our people need to circulate our money within our selves more so that we can gain wealth,.

 

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Your above explanation seems pretty satisfying. Be careful, though, because the national identity usually gets too strong and competition against other nations takes over, often escalating up to the level of physical violence, even warfare. So, I think a better strategy is to focus just on educating everyone, maybe concentrating on helping build constructive knowledge in the people you have those strong ties to. Resolve to teach them an attitude of not only being harmless to everyone, but additionally being as helpful as possible to themselves, and also to others if that happens even to be just indirectly. The key is to overcome a resentful attitude, and instead, take positive steps, not unlike some of the ones you have described.

I'm with you about hating the evil of exploiting others. :thumbsup:

 

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jwyatt123, I would just like to note for your benefit / attention something you surely must already know, but perhaps discount as Christianity is the "devils religion" suppressing / holding back "your people" you said in an earlier post:

There is quite a lot of similarity between most "Christian Economics" (or "Muslim Economics" too for that matter) and the socialist program you advocate. Your program is really a moral one as much as it is an economic one. Work with the moral leadership in the black community.

I have already suggested that you work with the established churches in the Black community, especially the AME. They are a force for lowering the future's discount rate, which in many cases, especially among young black men, is far too high. I.e. promotes interest only in get rich quick schemes, and that in turn gets many of them sent to jail.

Put in economic terms, the basic message of Christianity (perhaps of Muslims too - I don't know) is: Have a lower discount rate - Value the future rewards more, even be willing to suffer a little more now for a better future. Admittedly this is a strange way to put it, but that is the basic message. Often they are speaking of an after death future, but shifting the focus to "five years from now" should not be that hard.

 

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That is a *popular* method for any foreign ready-for-college students and any foreign worker to gain an Immigration Petition. Foreign ready-for-college students don't have to be rich. They often get student loans and grants just like the rest of us.

For people who use this method, yes they do require enough education to attend college; however, they don't need to be wealthy as I mentioned above.

There are plenty of jobs that H1B recognizes that don't require "high-skill". Secretaries, writers, and even clergy to name a few.

http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/H1B Visa Information Handbook H1B Application and Filing/ref/1272/

Also don't forget that work and education visas are popular ways to gain immigration petitions. The U.S. isn't selecting people who are educated, rich, and high class. People are simply choosing routes like H1B and they may or may not be educated and they may or not be rich.

This statement tries to use a true statistic to redirect attention away from the original assertion. You are correct that the percentage of college-educated immigrants roughly matches the percentage of native college-educated Americans (American's are higher on a side-note). It absolutely doesn't follow that a small minotiry of asians are much more educated than the natives... that was a an unsubstantiated claim. Lastly, what you stated was "...Asian immigrants were selected from the educated, monied, entrepreneurial classes of their respective countries in the first place." and the data says that 53.8% of the immigrants were poorly educated. So your assertion remains blatantly false.

Uh, owning a business is owning a business regardless of your personal biases.

Your implication is that black people cannot save. I can find plenty of articles about people successfully saving money on standard minimum wage.

You keep saying "selecting" and this is incorrect. The U.S. provides multiple paths and some are a lot more popular than others. It's the immigrants that choose whatever path they desire.

Whether or not that works or not is irrelevant, it wasn't his advice.

I did show some of your assertions to be false (and re-showed it). And actually it wasn't his perspective. We both misinterpreted him and it was Claud Anderson's assertions he was talking about.

If you want to narrow the definition in this manner then lets be more accurate. "...racism is the belief that culture is inherited. That is, it is a belief that groups of people behave in distinctive ways not because they have learned to do so, but because their members share some inherited essence (called "blood"; or sometimes "genes"--but without reference to specific DNA sequences)..."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...al-mirror/201101/how-should-racism-be-defined

I don't know if the "Not much work ethic" / "don't care about the future" assertions are Billy T's or Claud Anderson's; however, either way they don't qualify as racism. They are assertions about the characteristics of inner-city black culture... not beliefs that inner-city black culture is genetic. I have noted a trend where a lot people believe that any negative assertion concerning a cultural groups behavior (especially if you have black skin) is thought to be racism. I am seeing that right now in your responses.

 

Either Quad cannot read with comprehension or just lies to attack me. He says:

But I said exactly the opposite:

I.e. both Jesse & I give evidence that blacks are NOT lazy. I think Quad is just lying to attack me as he can read well. I have no idea why he stoops to name calling (says I am racist). One of the minor attractions of Brazil was the color line if very blurred here. I have fought racist all my life - done great deal to end it in the US.


Quad has very poor logic too: Equating my statement that in general many blacks have a high discount applied to future benefits to my saying: “Blacks are lazy and stupid.” This despite fact I clearly said they work very hard even though many whites do not believe that. Those whites are often still sleeping in their beds when the blacks are up, riding the bus to their jobs as maids or some are breaking into the back of a store to steal a TV etc. Many, especially black men, are very busy busy, active, working SO hard for immediate benefits (high discount rate) that they are often called “hustlers” often doing illegal "get wealth quick" things so some of them end up in jail.


Quad also mixes his time frames when making comparison: Uses the fact that the ancestors of black were slaves to refute my analysis that a high discount rate (which includes in many cases black male not staying with a pregnant girl friend but finding another Or as Jesse said; “Your children need your presence more than your presents.”) is a main reason why many (certainly not all) blacks do not slowly accumulate wealth as the typical Chinese does.

I noted that illiterate Chinese immigrated (some were even “Shanghaied”) to the US to build the transcontinental railroads, and documented that these poor literate Chinese had a very low discount rate (huge fraction of their pay save to by land and stores etc.):

As Quad did not answer my question at start of quote above, I will answer it for him:
He is noting (correctly) that in the last few decades, when China was prospering and the better off could send their kids to US colleges, that these recent immigrants were well educated, not poor, etc. – But that is mixing time frames when we were speaking of imported slaves and the Chinese brought to the US 150 or more years ago.

I was PROVING even very poor, literate Chinese labors had a low discount rate. Not comparing children of slave to recent Chinese immigrants. Quad may not like it but it is a fact that in general the Chinese (in fact most Asians) have a significantly lower discount rate applied to the future than the blacks do. Thus Asians in general are more willing to save, even if it means a lower quality live now, and in general ALL people with high discount rate save little. (That low savings fact can even be taken as an inverse index of the discount rate!)

In addition to the two first sentence alternatives (Quad does not read well or is lying) there is logically the possibility that Quad does not understand the concept of “Discount Rate”, but I know he does.

 

what privilages do i have that blacks in todays america do not?
i've had a couple of black girl friends, your accusations of racism is entirely unfounded.

nothing but troll bait.

 

No, worse than than just trolling: As documented in post 105, a name calling liar.

I forgot in post 105 to reply to his charge that I pity blacks. I do not. If mother nature has deformed you or mankind has seriously abused you (as happen to blacks in the era when they were slaves) yes I would feel pity, but not now in the US where exceptional upward mobility opportunities exists. I documented this exceptional upward mobility in post 190 as follows:

going on to show that some very poor Chinese labors escaped their exploited poverty by saving up to $25 out of their monthly salary (of $35 or less) with documentation - a reference is given in post 190.

Then quite in contrast to pity I made a long list of statements jwyatt123 had posted trying to blame others, especially whites, for the lack of advancement so common in the black community - I explained that much of the fault was in their high discount ratio so common. That is not "pity" - that is helpful honest suggestion about what needs to change. I.e. in post 103 I made (again) some very concrete suggestions as how he could work towards making the needed change.

jwyatt123 is sincere, intelligent, and will help improve conditions for blacks (as I very substantially did years ago in Baltimore), provided he ceases only blaming whites and more correctly understands the nature of what is really holding them back.

 

Thank you thank you thank you very much for this post Brother.

I will work with the Black churches in our communities, I intend to do that, I intend to work with my Brothers in college. I intend to work with my Hispanic Brother and my Korean Brother who have knowledge to lend. I intend to work with my so-called white Brothers and Sisters who have sympathy, patience, and humility. I intend to work with my Brothers in business, my Brothers on the street and even my African Brothers.

If you've ever been around an African, you can tell their spiritual energy is so high. If you have them work for you ( which in turn is working for them ) then they will be your soldiers. They are truly loyal to a greater cause. They love Brotherhood just as much as I do. And THAT is the key. Brotherhood. Human relations. If you can cultivate the human spirit just as greatly as I can then everything else will follow through.

I'm not trying to be boastful or vulgar, but this is what I can bring to the table. Work to cultivate the human spirit. I can enjoin men only for goodness. And my Brothers are the spiritual earth as I stand on them and we stand on each other, the weight comes out to be six sextillion tons. We are Mighty when unified. If we enjoin and produce material from the physical earth and make our sustenance benefit unity and socialism, then in the sight of Brotherhood, we have become truly free and not slaves


I will no longer speak on organized religion if my words and message are unclean in spirit, filled with vulgarity and filth and if my words are not Truth.

Again, thank you for your posts brother, I truly appreciate them.

Now Brother, this thread has a purpose. I only wish to learn. There is nothing I can say in the way of economics that you probably don't already know.

Now, can you help me to understand what you were saying about discount rates and their importance?

 

I don't know how you did it, but in that last post of yours, the quote says:

When the actual post you quoted was by brother Billy T.

Arthur

 

I would be proud to call you brother, you heart is definitely in the right place, you are thinking about the problem working hard for a cause* we both believe in, and thanks for calling me brother.

*Social and economic justice, and that later is only possible if ALL get to go to good schools, not schools locally funded, as that assures the poor communities have poor schools. I have many posts pointing out that local funding of schools is a major reason why few advance out of the poor conditions they were born into. We share a common political agenda, I am sure at least here.

 

"discount rate" is just a formal economic term for concept you alread know, but is used to make it quantative. It is also closely related to another economic term used in numerical analysis of economic values, "present value" (and to "interest rate" which I m sure you already understand.)

For example, if I were to offer you $97 dollars now or $100 dollars a year from now and you have no special need for money now then if the bank or some other fully safe investment is paying 4% interest you should take the $97 now. You can put it in that bank paying 4% and have 1.04x 97 = $100.88 a year from now. In this special case (no immediate need for the money) your "discount rate" is the same as the interest rate, 4%. I.e. the value to you now of $100 paid a year later is only 0.96x 100 = $96. I.e. the "present value" of $100 a year from now is only $96 for some one with a 4% discount rate.

Likewise if the interest rate is only 2% and that is also your discount rate then $100 a year from now has a present value to you of $98 so better to refuse the $97 and take the $100 a year from now.

This illustrates what I was saying: people with a low discount rate will defer benefits they could have now for later benefits which have a greater present value.

Now in general while interest rates are almost the same for everyone, people often have very different discount rates. For example, I may have no job and little money but need to buy some shoes to go to a job interview. My personnel discount rate might thus be 10%. I.e. even if offered only $91 to sign away my right to collect $100 year from now I will do it as with my 10% personnel discount rate that paid in the future $100 is only worth $90 to me now. I.e. its "present value" (to me with my 10% discount rate) is only $90.

Again you see what I was saying: If I (or a people) have a high discount rate we do not care / do not value / a future benefit as highly as if we had a lower discount rates. People with high discount rates tend to spend now instead of save for their highly discounted future. They will also take greater risk, which may give benefit now but run the risk that their future is going to be worse. I.e. they may steal a car for the immediate benefit and not worry much about the their future.

Discount rate, although mainly an economic analysis tool, has / is a broader concept. In general a low discount rate is associated with a willingness to enjoy less now for greater joy in the future. With this more general understanding I think you can see why I said that most, if not all, religions promote a lower of the discount rate. - Encourage their followers to work and save for a better future, etc. (and for their spiritual future too).

IMO, many black males get into trouble as they want better life now and don't worry much about the future - I.e. have too high a discount rates for their own good. Getting them into the AME (or probably a mosque - I don't know) may be able to make them value the future more - I.e. lower their discount rate.

Anyway, I hope you now have good understanding of what the discount rate is.

 

one of the darkest chapters in american history.
i, for one, am damn glad we FINALLY put it behind us.
it's a shitting shame lincoln "freed" the slaves but yet it took over a hundred years for that dream to be fully realized.

BTW, less than 15% of the atlantic slave trade came to america.
if JW REALLY wants to see who the culprits are then maybe he should look to his own for some answers.
muslims were some of the most notorious on the planet.

 

Of course you are talking segregation. You are consistently and continuously segregating in your mind, in your words, in your attitudes and in your responses, white people from black people. You are the one making the divisions. You are the one making the distinctions. You are the one who is segregating.

Get with reality. They are all simply people. We are all simply people.

When I walk down the corridor to my office in the morning I don't think "there's X, he is Polish, there's Y he's Trinidadian, there's Z he's Nigerian, there's M she's Egyptian. I think, instead, there's X he's a sharp cookie, there's Y, I wonder if he's completed his project, there's Z, he's transfering soon. I don't notice there 'race' any more than I notice what they are wearing.

You speak as if your race was the most important aspect of who you are. If that is the case I pity you. Frankly it's almost totally irrelevant. I'm at a loss to think why some people give it so much weight (apart from irrational stupidity).

 

Look fella,

My program is for all people. White people and in particular people who think they have power just because they make a whole lot of money ( for personal benefit ) are in need of a teaching of Socialism. Even our Brothers in the colleges think they are successful just because they have a job.

The system teaches our children in schools that in order to have a "successful" business that you must make surplus. In order to make surplus you must exploit human Worth. What a filthy teaching.

This world ( Western world in particular ) is divided among themselves and if we do not work together for the benefit of the people, we will be in manifest error.


1. Study the Law of Retribution
Black people will lead the world into Freedom, Justice and Equality. They are first to be mentally resurrected first ( as all over the world, people are mentally dead ) as they are of the best ( Spiritual ) material. Because we love each other and all peoples of the earth have the capacity to love one another, but we all are too arrogant to accept the teaching of Socialism.

2. We Have Been Made Arrogant Because Of Our Love For Greed And Filthiness
I love my people, not money. I love God and since I love God, I love His People, His Word and the Principle in which made Truth Born ( Manifest ). We as a people are not to love money, but we are to produce sustenance that is beneficial to all peoples. It is thinking a little bit too far ahead to want a worldwide, righteous socialist society. Maybe one day, but I'll start this program with Black people first.

3. I Am Not Sorry For Loving My Race
I love Black people! I would scream that from the mountain tops. I have race pride ( I shouldn't say pride; pride is inordinace ) and race respect. When I love my self and my kind that means I have respect for other races and other humankinds. I have a thorough understanding of the different races and how their acknowledgement is important. Black people are so beautiful! Have you ever seen them? I just love my people so much and I want to make it known to you that I love Black people and would die for them.

If you have nothing clean and respectable to say to help me to understand economics then don't comment on my thread. Do not disrespect me. I will not allow the power of you words to assassinate my character in the eyes of others. When you speak as much filth as you do, you make the associate person feel enmity.

Please stop bashing me and let us work together. If you have some knowledge to contribute then may you please help me to understand Science that I may build sustenance with my people and share with my people.

P.S. If you are Caucasian, please take no offence to my passion for uplifting fallen humanity.

 

Good information.

Question: May you please make it known to people on this thread that Black people are a very special group of people: that their non immigration to America has placed them in a very special situation, different from other immigrants and non immigrants. May you analyze this economically?

You said earlier "For example why do you not propose that everyone living in your city block only buy and sell from others also living in your city block? Limiting the size of the market you sell to or buy from is always a way to be less successful."

I am working with this idea. If we have communities and community blocks that have business and service their block/section. But these businesses need to form a coalition. We have little markets, but our coalition of black business owners are partners and producers and not necessarily wage earners ( I am still wrangling with this; don't quote me ) So we serve our communities and make our extra profits that we put in a bank. We satisfy our material needs, and while we gain extra we can put that in a bank. If our coalition can get together, with the members of our coalition consisting of black business owners who have the mind of saving their money into a coalition.

With the money we save we can buy land and/or build other businesses into our coalition. We tell them that we have money and we will build or move ( if existing business ) their building provided they join our coalition and save their earnings with us in the black bank as we will already have business owners saving in banks the excess money. Remember we are talking firstly hundreds, and I want to build thousands.

This is a small revelation of my plan. How does it sound?

I am wrangling with your statement: And that is what I was thinking exactly that we have to serve our communities and our communities can be split up into segments, but I want to promote a workshop for these businesses that are not cooperating with each other. I want to enjoin them in one coalition and guide them for a Socialist Economic Workshop and ultimately have their extra earnings to save in our black bank.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
ROTFLMAO!!

get a life.

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why america?
especially when it accounts for only a tiny fraction of the slave trade?
trying to stir up shit?
if i were you i would do some serious research into "the slave trade" before i made myself look like a total moron.

e.g. "your muslim brothers" account for one of the most massive "forced immigrations" known to man.

 

JW,
segregation and racism really pisses me off and you going around supporting and advocating such garbage makes me insane.

you wouldn't like it one damned bit if i touted "whites are special" would you?
on top of that there would be only one reason i would make such a ridiculous statement.

 

1. It Is Known That Africans And Arabs Have Massacred The So-Called Negro
We are not followers of the Arab or the ways of the African, nor are we followers of savage modern day slavery. We are not the followers of the Mohammadeans of the East. We are Righteous people, do not confuse us with political Mohammadism. We ( all people of the earth ) were Righteous by nature but we were made to love other than God by wicked slave masters ( who have enslaved the entire world ) who tell us the lie that God is a mystery and cannot be Found among us.

2. Why America?
Because I live in America. America is the greatest country on earth and is the best place to teach Freedom, Justice and Equality.

3. We Are The Only Non-Immigrant In America
We did not come here on any ships as civilized people to inhabit America. We were brought here against our will and kept dumb to the Knowledge of Self.

I only wish to spread you love. You may throw angry messages at me all day long, but Allah is with me. I am not ashamed to Praise His Name to an individual with such vulgar language and filthy mind. I only request that you not soil His Good Name to attack me. I would rather you attack me only.

If you do not want to sincerely help me gain Knowledge ( which is the greatest thing to have ) then do not comment on my thread. If you want serious connection and communion, that you may understand me and fix my mistakes then please humble your self.

I come in the Name of Brotherhood, and if you don't want to be my brother then go on and have a good day. Peace Be Upon You.

Please sincerely lend your ear and circumcise your heart for understanding. Humble yourself then I will give to you the best understanding of me. I leave you in inordinancy because you do not humble yourself. There are things that are beneficial to your understanding but I am the knower of them, but I will only convene with you when you have proved to me that you are humble in Spirit.

 

Then, if part I made bold is true, you must be very attentive to what people wear. Yes, we are all "just people" but black people are different from the Poles, Egyptians and most others in that you at least subconsciously identify them as black at first glance - their skin is dark.

I'll tell you how this simple fact was driven home to me, with real deep understanding:

When the operational leader of the effort to open Baltimore's restaurants I walked the picket lines like all the others (after the police had arrived and the trespass law was read to us, we peacefully left the restaurant. - The Baltimore Africa American newspaper (and a few "silent angels") could not pay more for lawyers etc.). I got to know one smart black high school student. I no longer remember his name but he was my friend for that summer. It gets boring on the picket line so I usually sought him* out to talk to. One day to him, I was blowing off my frustration with the main leadership of our effort:

The leadership of the Civic Interest Group, CIG, was all black, mature leaders of the black community. One later became the Mayor of Baltimore and two ended up in the US House of Representatives. Occasionally they would take me to the negotiations with the Restaurant Association, RA. - I was the "token white" but said nothing. My simple presence was the message I had to give.

I told this young black guy that the CIG leadership was hypocritical. That I was making a huge contribution to the effort, making it succeed after two prior summers of failure, delaying my Ph.D. research etc. I said that I had earned a seat at the leadership table as more than a "token white" to show to the RA. Etc.

After quietly listening to my rant, he asked: What color is your skin? White, I replied. Then he extended his arm and asked: What color is my skin? Black, I replied. Then he said the only words I have ever heard that really deeply hurt because they were so true and embodied the social injustice I was fighting. He said, with his arm still extended:

"Someday you will walk away from all this, I can't."

Thus I know you notice the dark skin color and immediately identify the person you are looking at as black. - You don't do this with a Pole, etc. Blacks may prosper, get multiple Ph.D.s, etc. but they are still black and victims of all the deep seated prejudices / stereotypes most white have absorbed, especially when young, from their society. When they come up to bat, they normally already have one strike against them: They are black. They are not the same as Poles or Egyptians. If you are honest you will admit that.

Few people have worked as hard as I have to free themselves of the early subtitle anti-black conditioning they absorbed when young from the US society but I would still feel awkward dating a black girl - I was well conditioned in the deep South. I was never north of the Mason-Dixon line until going to Cornell.


*There were some special advantages I had by being the one who assigned others to cars and told them which restaurant** they were to hit, etc. By some strange chance, one of the prettier girls for Gaucher College usually ended up in my car. I dated at least three of them that summer.

**Most of the cars were supplied by Gaucher girls and they of course drove their own car with one other white girl in it and with as many high school blacks as could squeeze in it. The two white girls went into the restaurant first, a minute or so apart, sat at different tables and ordered. Then five or so minutes later the blacks ran thru the door, before it could be locked, and joined them. I had to keep track of which girls went to which restaurants to avoid any repeat as one might be recognized and trip the RA’s telephone alarm chain, getting the doors locked of all restaurants. Everyone understood this and accepted my assignments.

PS to leopold wrt to your post 116:
Yes, as explained above, in US society blacks ARE a special group. I think it is changing for the better. It certainly has in Brazil, but perhaps the US needs law like we have in Brazil. - Here you will at least be fined or possible go to jail for making a derogatory remark based on race.

 

You and all people are biological machines. You collect energy to persist and that is your function.