What is Eastern and Western countries?

I consider Westerners to be those or those who come from countries that are

a) white/European by racial composition
b) democratic/capitalist
c) Christian
d) shaped by the intellectual forces of enlightenment Europe

If you have all of these, you are Western. If you have some, such as Japan or Israel, you might be considered ‘Westernized’, or even Western in a lose definition of the word.

But 'Western' is obviously a very fluid and nebulous term, so really none of us have a mandate on what it *really* means.

Firstly it probably should be noted that it's a word that can have totally different meanings. If we say that something is West or East or North, we can be denoting a location or direction. We use these geographical adjectives a lot in Europe, but East/West/North in this sense is a is but loosely related the word 'West', as a historical concept, which is what where talking about here.

'West' as a historical concept:

-Began in the Hellenic world.

The Hellenic division between Greeks and "barbarians" (a Greek word), predates the division between East and West. The contrast was between Greek-speaking culture of mainland Greece, the Aegean, the Ionian coast and Magna Graecia in southern Italy, and the surrounding non-Greek cultures of Thrace and Anatolia, the Persian Empire, Phoenicians and Egypt. This contrast can be traced in the Trojan War, which is dated traditionally to 1194 BC - 1184 BC. Presuming it had a historical basis, the conflict was between Achaeans and the non-Greek Trojans in western Anatolia. The Greeks also considered the Persian Wars of the early 5th century BC a conflict of west versus east.


East-West became about the bisected Roman empire the Middle Ages.

The Mediterranean basin was united by Romans, but distinctions remained between Empire's mostly Latin-speaking western half and the more urbanized eastern half, where Greek was the lingua franca. The Roman Emperor Diocletian divided the Roman Empire into two regions, each administered by a Caesar (Tetrarchy), in 292 A.D.; the eastern part evolved into Byzantine empire, a Christian theocracy where the emperor was head of the spiritual life as well ("caesaropapism"). At the same time, Roman rule in the western part crumbled under pressures from outside the empire, and was slowly rebuilt as a culture divided between two sources of power, the Pope and the Emperor.

The distinctions between the western and eastern parts of the Christian world remained through the Middle Ages, despite a nominal sense of Christian unity (the concept of "Christendom") brought about by the conquests of Christian lands by the Muslim Arabs and Turks. The Franks under Charlemagne established a western empire, which was recognized as the Holy Roman Empire by the Pope, offending the Byzantine Emperor. The Latin Rite church of western and central Europe, headed by the Pope (the Patriarch of Rome), split with the eastern, Greek-speaking Patriarchates during the Great Schism. "Latin" and "Frankish" Crusaders sacked the Byzantine capital Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade as ruthlessly as they did the 'infidel' Muslims. With its Byzantine heritage, Orthodox Europe, including Russia, may or may not be considered part of the West.
'
'Western' meant the European values of the colonialists in the clonial era.

During the early 16th century, explorers and conquerors like Christopher Columbus, Hernán Cortés and several other conquered new continents on behalf of the Western nations. Up until the 19th century, Europeans settled new lands and thus the term "Western" came to encompass nations and former colonies such as the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. populated mostly by immigrants from Europe and their descendants.

In the Cold War West became synomous with free world Values.

The Earth was divided into three "worlds", numbered "1st, 2nd and 3rd". The first were NATO-members and other nations aligned with the United States. The second world were the Eastern bloc nations in the Communist sphere of influence, such as the Soviet Union, People's Republic of China, etc. The third world were nations unaligned with either. Hence, the Western world became a synonym for the first world.

After the Cold War, and because of the failures of Soviet bloc countries, West came to mean developed, liberal countries.

the term "Western" is not so much a geographical definition as it is a cultural and economic one, therefore:


African history can speak of Western influences by a group of small countries that lie to its north.
Australia can be considered a Westernized country located in the East.
International companies founded in America may be considered foreign influences in Europe, but be said to be Western when their presence is seen (and sometimes criticized) in the Orient.

Depending on context, the Western countries may be restricted to the founding members of NATO, the members of the European Union (EU) and Switzerland, Andorra, Vatican City, San Marino, Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland. A broader definition might extend to Australia and New Zealand and sometimes Israel.

The Asian countries Japan, South Korea, the Republic of China (Taiwan), are sometimes considered part of the West and sometimes not.

Latin and South American countries are sometimes considered part of the West and sometimes not. Mainland China, the remainder of the Middle East, India, and Russia are generally not considered part of the West.


One widely used criterion of 'west' is Huntington's, which iI partly agree with.

Huntington's thesis that the world can be understood as being made up of several civilizations, and that conflicts between civilizations will be the primary tensions of the post-cold-war world, replacing the ideological conflicts (i.e capitalism vs. communism) that characterized the cold-war world. According to Huntington's thesis, the primarily Roman Catholic and Protestant countries of western and central Europe, together with the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, constitute the "Euro-Atlantic" civilization, which share a common system of values, shaped by the historic influence of the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment. Huntington and his followers understood "The West" to be roughly synonymous with the Euro-Atlantic civilization, although countries with roots in other civilizations, such as Greece, Turkey, or Japan, may choose to ally themselves with the West as a result of having absorbed "Western" ideas and values into their societies. Huntington's thesis was influential, but was by no means universally accepted; its supporters say that it explains modern conflicts, such as those in the former Yugoslavia; the thesis' detractors fear that by equating values like democracy with "Western civilization" reinforces racist and/or xenophobic notions about "non-Western" societies.

In Huntington's thesis, the historically Eastern Orthodox nations of southeastern and eastern Europe constitute a distinct "Euro-Asiatic civilization"; although European and Christian, these nations were not, in Huntington's view, shaped by the cultural influences of the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment, and were not "Western" in the same sense as the Euro-Atlantic civilization. Huntington also considered Latin America to be a separate civilization from the West.

In the Near East or Middle East, (both terms relative to Europe as being in the west), the distinction between Western Europe and Eastern Europe is of less importance; countries that western Europeans might think of as part of Eastern Europe, i.e. Russia, might be counted as Western in the Middle East, in the sense of being both European and Christian

quotes from - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

 

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Well, I could only assume you are joking because you have emerged in this new thread sounding like a arrogant cultural supremacist, calling Hungary 'backward' and 'uncivilized' ect. This is quite a contrast from the boring, platitudinous cultural egalitarian you showed yourself to be in that other thread. Don’t get me wrong, I like this new opinionated you better, but it’s obvious that it’s not the real you, you’re just trying to piss me off.

But it’s not going to work, because
a) you don't know what you're talking about - you are vastly ignorant of the multi-ethnic history of Hungary. We have lots of Slavs, Germans.. most Magyars are a mix of Germanic, Uric and Slavic Blood. That’s why so many of us have blond hair and blue eyes,
and b) I am proud of those Uralic - Finno parts of our ancestry.
I respect lot’s of cultures. I also hate lot’s of cultures, such as Islam.

Well what is modern day Hungary was part of the Carolingian empire (and pannonia and Dacadia (old Hungary) were part of the Roman Empire as well, contrary to your information). I don't need to tell myself anything, old man.

As for 'Yugoslavia, you used the word first', I was just saying I live in the area you’re pretending to know something about. But many Balkans folk still refer to this place still as Yugoslavia, especially Serbs.

 

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Well, I could only assume you are joking because you have emerged in this new thread sounding like a arrogant cultural supremacist, calling Hungary 'backward' and 'uncivilized' ect.

That’s what you doing with the Arabs and the middle east, so if you don’t like the medicine don’t dish it out.

I like this new opinionated you better, but it’s obvious that it’s not the real you, you’re just trying to piss me off.

Not really, in comparison with Italy Hungary doesn’t even hold a candle stick…your society is still too backward who knows how many Hungarian women sell themselves on the international market as whores. As we do know that prostitution seems to be a big thing in Hungary. When women have to sell themselves, that shows something about your society.

a) you don't know what you're talking about - you are vastly ignorant of the multi-ethnic history of Hungary. We have lots of Slavs, Germans.. most Magyars are a mix of Germanic, Uric and Slavic Blood. That’s why so many of us have blond hair and blue eyes,

None of those people are western, firstly Slavs are obviously not western, Germans are westernized they were not part of the Roman Empire, and they were rightly called barbarians. Uric, as well are not western people, they are from the plains of Asia. Sorry but it seems it is you who doesn’t know what he is talking about.

b) I am proud of those Uralic - Finno parts of our ancestry.
I respect lot’s of cultures. I also hate lot’s of cultures, such as Islam.

My ass you do, you are proud of your Asian heritage because that’s what you are. Although pervious posts indicated that you were a self-hating Hungarian.

Well what is modern day Hungary was part of the Carolingian empire (and pannonia and Dacadia (old Hungary) were part of the Roman Empire as well, contrary to your information). I don't need to tell myself anything, old man.

Actualy I have a map to prove this largely incorrect:

http://img1.uploadimages.net/894277CXM935.gif

As you can see all three empires merely touched the modern borders of what is now Hungary. So no…try again.

As for 'Yugoslavia, you used the word first',

In a historical context, you used it in a modern context.

I was just saying I live in the area you’re pretending to know something about. But many Balkans folk still refer to this place still as Yugoslavia, especially Serbs.

Well they can deny history all they want, but that doesn’t change a thing.

 

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No I DO like the medicine, I sad that. I like people who aren’t afraid to make value judgments regarding races & cultures. You have reading comprehension problems.But if you are going to defend Arab culture, the Most barbaric sulture iin the world bar maybe the backkwards Africans, from the bias Western Microscope, like you spent that whole other thread doing, and then go call Hungary backwards in the western light, you are only going to look like a fool and a hypocrite.

Backwards by your ‘Western standard' I suppose. Oh but don't you know, 'Western is not the only standard'.

What a feeble argument. Greece contribute more whores to those international prostitution rings than Hungary, and they are, according to you, are a one of the only countries that are truely Western. Shitholes like California and New Orleans have far more whores on the street than any place in Hungary does. No surprise then that America has the highest per capita rate of Aids and STD’s in the Western world. More than 10x the rate of Hungary, in fact. Your population is also twice as fat as ours, and you are twice as likely to be murdered. These things show a lot about your society.

If you want to have this archaic, outmoded and arbitrary definition of what ‘Western' means - based on Byzantium/Western empires - that’s fine, but you have to accept that other people use more evolved definitions, as noted in the encyclopedia article I just posted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

West is far more practically defined as a political culture now, since European Values are scattered all over the world. How else could australia/New Zealand and America be class Western, they were never part of the Roman Empire.

Your definition is not only outmoded, you can't even keep it consistent. In the first place you define ‘Western’ as all that was the 'Western Roman empire'..

..and then go on to say that Greece are one of the only true Western countries. lol you should know that Greece/Greek culture once conquered by the Romans went on to comprise the EASTERN portion of Christendom.

The 'West was always West'?? What did it just fall like a blanket out of the sky, covering a few people in one corner of Europe, and that's that? It is not a fliud force, that has spread, contracted, developed and evolved right throughout History, since the Greeks? You sound like a fool.

As for ze Germans, who according to you were/are not western, ‘rightly called barbarians’, and therefor not really ‘western’, they were the very Franks as DEFINE as Western here:

Lol you really are a confused man little..the Franks were Germans...

The Franks were a group of Germanic tribes that, about the middle of the 3rd century AD, dwelt along the middle and lower Rhine River. The Franks appeared in the Roman provinces around 253 and soon thereafter established themselves in two principal groups, the Salian and the Ripuarian. The Salian Franks inhabited the territory along the lower stretches of the Rhine, and the Ripuarian Franks lived along the middle course of the river. The Salians were conquered by the Roman emperor Julian in 358 and became allies of Rome. During the early 5th century, when the Romans retired from the Rhine, the Salians established themselves in most of the territory north of the Loire River

http://ragz-international.com/franks.htmi.e

All of the Holy Roman Empire was a fusion of Germanic, Roman, and eastern cultures.

http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/tours/gothic/history/holy_rom.html

I am not Asian. I don’t look or act anything like an Asian. I look like a white European, because I am. Your assertions that Hungarians are not Europeans are laughable to any Hungarian. But oh wait, only the Basque, Celts, and Greeks are Europeans aren’t they? These claims are laughable to a Millions of self-identified Europeans. Your classifications are no less ridiculous than saying we all should Identify as Africans, since I guess we all migrated from there.

From encyclopedia.com

The territory of Hungary belonged to the Roman provinces of Pannonia and Dacia. By the end of the 4th century Rome had lost Pannonia which had been occupied by Germans, Slavs, Huns and Avars. The latter ruled over the Danube basin during the 7th and 8th centuries, until they were conquered by Charlemagne. Charlemagne’s successors set up a series of Duchies in the western and northern parts of the basin, while the southern and eastern parts were under the sphere of influence of the Byzantine Empire and Bulgaria. The Duchy of Croatia became independent in 869 and Moravia put up stiff resistance to the Carolingians until the appearance of the Magyars


Well they can deny history all they want, but that doesn’t change a thing.

Noone's trying to deny anything, it’s not uncommon for people to identify with what they’ve been historically called. You should know this, being a Palestinian supporter. Perhaps I’ll just call them ‘West – Bankians’ from now on? Macedonian Greeks identify themselves as Macedonians all the time.

 

No I DO like the medicine, I sad that. I like people who aren’t afraid to make value judgments regarding races & cultures. You have reading comprehension problems.But if you are going to defend Arab culture, the Most barbaric sulture iin the world bar maybe the backkwards Africans, from the bias Western Microscope, like you spent that whole other thread doing, and then go call Hungary backwards in the western light, you are only going to look like a fool and a hypocrite.

The problem is that I do not consider these states backwards, not even Hungary. I am just merely relaying your ignorance back onto you. If you think that some races are superior then others, and cultures, then I understand why Hungary fought with the Nazi’s with so much gusto, and killing over a million Jews from Hungary. The problem with you is obvious me calling your culture, and your state backwards causes to create these responses, if I am so wrong…then why bother? They defend your position if it so correct? Its obvious you are self-conscious now of your position in the Western world.

Backwards by your ‘Western standard' I suppose. Oh but don't you know, 'Western is not the only standard'.

No it’s not Hungary compared to African standards is very developed but compared to Western standards, it is not all that advanced and it is still stuck back in the Cold War era, I don’t even think Hungary went through a industrial revolution. Hungary compared to Western standards is Eastern…

What a feeble argument. Greece contribute more whores to those international prostitution rings than Hungary, and they are, according to you, are a one of the only countries that are truely Western.

I would like to see some stats to support that assertion? I do know that in Budapest that it is infested with whores, and Hungary’s population is shrinking rather significantly. Remember culturally Greece is the birth place of the West but today is WELL behind the West. Greece is western because the West was created there, otherwise Greece is pretty much in the same situation that Hungary is.

Shitholes like California and New Orleans have far more whores on the street than any place in Hungary does.

Because California has a population of 30 million ppl, per capita I would wager that Hungary has much more.

No surprise then that America has the highest per capita rate of Aids and STD’s in the Western world. More than 10x the rate of Hungary, in fact. Your population is also twice as fat as ours, and you are twice as likely to be murdered. These things show a lot about your society.

I’m not American…so think again…I’m Canadian a much better society.

If you want to have this archaic, outmoded and arbitrary definition of what ‘Western' means - based on Byzantium/Western empires - that’s fine, but you have to accept that other people use more evolved definitions, as noted in the encyclopedia article I just posted.

Those are opinions just like mine, neither is totally correct but we both have our points. My point is that yes states like Hungary, Germany, Japan, India can be westernized but cannot be western.

West is far more practically defined as a political culture now, since European Values are scattered all over the world. How else could australia/New Zealand and America be class Western, they were never part of the Roman Empire.

Very simple…western immigration when Western Europeans moved to these colonies. States like Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Uruguay, and even to some extent South Africa are predominantly white, Christian, states that are offshoots of western empires. They were affected by Western ideals, and politics. Hungary was an empire as well, her empire was compared to even Austria was backward (by western standards, by Russian standards normal).

Your definition is not only outmoded, you can't even keep it consistent. In the first place you define ‘Western’ as all that was the 'Western Roman empire'.

Yes that is the birthplace of the West and the Western core exists in that region. But their offshoots are essentially the same states in another location.


..and then go on to say that Greece are one of the only true Western countries. lol you should know that Greece/Greek culture once conquered by the Romans went on to comprise the EASTERN portion of Christendom.

I realize this, I readily admit that the Greeks have fallen way behind the West economically, but Greece was the birthplace of the West. No matter who rules over the Greeks they are by default and historically western.

The 'West was always West'?? What did it just fall like a blanket out of the sky, covering a few people in one corner of Europe, and that's that? It is not a fliud force, that has spread, contracted, developed and evolved right throughout History, since the Greeks? You sound like a fool.

Did Hungary have the industrial revolution? No, so not so foolish after all.

As for ze Germans, who according to you were/are not western, ‘rightly called barbarians’, and therefor not really ‘western’, they were the very Franks as DEFINE as Western here:

Sure they were westernized by the Franks, but they were not part of the Latin world, thus they were not part of the humanist spirit. You must remember that Germany is a modern construct; it never existed prior to Bismark. Prussia was not the same as the Rhine region, Germany is not culturally united.

Lol you really are a confused man little..the Franks were Germans...

Franks were influenced by Rome, as stated in your little tid bit, like I said Germany and Germans are not all the same. Those of the Rhine culturally had very little in common with those in Prussia. Prussians surely are not western…

All of the Holy Roman Empire was a fusion of Germanic, Roman, and eastern cultures.

Yes? So, that doesn’t mean that Germans are western, they adopted western ways. If you missed Rome, you missed your chance. Germans were Christians; they had little contact with Greco-Roman humanism.

I am not Asian. I don’t look or act anything like an Asian. I look like a white European, because I am. Your assertions that Hungarians are not Europeans are laughable to any Hungarian.

Of course because you think that looks are everything, the basis of your genes, your culture, your language does not stem from Europe, but rather from Central Asia. Same with Turks, many Turks look European but are you wiling to call them Western European as well? No I didn’t think so, so why should I call you that? Now I am not saying that your culture, your genes, etc. Have not been affected by Europeans of course it has but again it was through assimilation not a natural progression. Look why do you have so much trouble just saying that you are westernized, but not western. You know that’s the truth.

But oh wait, only the Basque, Celts, and Greeks are Europeans aren’t they?

The Basque, Celts, Greeks etc. were in Europe prior to the building of European society comprende? They were here when you were in Tuva drinking mare’s milk with the Mongols. The Basque, Greeks, Celts created my western culture, for you Mongolians Turks created who you are.

These claims are laughable to a Millions of self-identified Europeans. Your classifications are no less ridiculous than saying we all should Identify as Africans, since I guess we all migrated from there.

The problem is that self-identified Europeans doesn’t exist, its either you are European or not. I don’t what you think you are. Live with reality, stop being a self-hating Hungarian.

The territory of Hungary belonged to the Roman provinces of Pannonia and Dacia.

What is Hungary? Dacia is now part of Romania, which Hungary are they talking about? Imperial Hungary or the Hungary of today. Please… try again.

Noone's trying to deny anything, it’s not uncommon for people to identify with what they’ve been historically called

If you want to by History, I should call you are barbarian end of story.

 

too lazy to read the posts, i was under the impression that Europe, America, Canada, Russia, and Australia are basically the only western places, n asia/pacific - excluding australia- is eastern

 

Russia is western? /laughs/ Apparently you've never been to Russia.
Maybe only Santpetersburg is westernish...

p.s. America in your post = the USA?

 

"Russia is western? /laughs/ Apparently you've never been to Russia."

check out quotage from http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Russo.htm

"For the first time in modern history an Asian military force (japn) had soundly whipped the army and navy of a major western imperial power (russia)."

apparently, it is western...

 

That's factually incorrect then if we are to say that Russia was an actual western state, then so is Japan herself. Both adopted western naval tactics, and machinery. Russia is surely not a western state, its still not even westernized.

 

alain, I don't care for some websites
I've been to western countries and I know russia quite well
it's by no means a western state and the people are not too

 

tis all shades of grey and crap, it isnt western compared to Britain, but compared to China or soemthing, it is

 

How many years have you lived in USSR/Russia to tell that?
Russians don't have westerner mentality, methods, reasons.
Sure, they are not eastern like chinese, but they are not western like germans, scandinavians, brits or people in Switzerland. Besides, you seem to forget (or don't grasp it) that Russian Federation stretches from the Baltic sea to the Pacific Ocean, from the artic to the Black sea. Tuvic tribes are western? /laughs

Besides, your profile information before you edited it told you were 12 or 15 years old. That's a lot of life experience! /sneers

p.s. watch your language.

 

"America in your post = the USA?" yes

"How many years have you lived in USSR/Russia to tell that?"
how many eastern countries have you lived in?

"Russians don't have westerner mentality, methods, reasons.
Sure, they are not eastern like chinese, but they are not western like germans, scandinavians, brits or people in Switzerland. Besides, you seem to forget (or don't grasp it) that Russian Federation stretches from the Baltic sea to the Pacific Ocean, from the artic to the Black sea. Tuvic tribes are western? /laughs"

agreed, but if they were Eastern, why would they build all of their large towns, and their capital city, right near to the border to Europe??

"Besides, your profile information before you edited it told you were 12 or 15 years old. That's a lot of life experience! /sneers"
i edited it? that's news to me. oh well, i apologize profusely for being young, i shall grow older, right now

"p.s. watch your language."
lol, grow up

 

agreed, but if they were Eastern, why would they build all of their large towns, and their capital city, right near to the border to Europe??


That's a fallacious argument in the first place, secondly using your logic. You assume that all of Europe is western in the first place, it is not. Russia was not influenced by any of the western developments until really the introduction of communism (which they even screwed up pretty badly). Also their capitals were designed by Italians…that says it all.

 

Well, I'm glad you admitted you're being ignorant. But you’ll remember I noticed that in my first reply to you when I said "i don't think you're stupid enough to believe all that". But this seemed to elicit an indignant response from you, hence why I kept responding.

I have no trouble admitting that that Hungary is Westernized, if you'd rather say it that way. It just follows semantically to me that a westernized is western, just like a house that is painted white is referred to as being white. You seem to want establish a barrier between an original western and a converted westernized. I don't think this is an illogical model I just have trouble with it because it seems like a slipery slope. The indo Europeans brought 'western' customs to the Greece, the Greeks Westernized the Romans, the Romans Westernized the Britons, it's all a bit arbitrary where we demark between what is western and westernized, if we must do that. Also, I have trouble with this model because a lot of things that we see as poignantly western, like Christianity didn't develop until after the Greco-Roman way of life had expired. And so much of what is commonly defined as western is caught up in enlightenment thinking, which is a world away from ancient Greece.

In any case, I have no trouble admitting that Hungary is far different from Rome and Greece.

 

Well, I'm glad you admitted you're being ignorant.

I admitted no such thing, for you see you just called yourself ignorant, where here did I call myself ignorant? I am just merely relaying your ignorance back onto you., frankly I used your logic, and your line of argumentation ,and called you ignorant. Now that you conceded that the line of argumentation you used is ignorant I have no more time for an illiterate pretentious pseudo intellectual as yourself. Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot, sure is fun to see one deprecate on himself.

 

Hmmph you are a feisty one. I don't know what your problem is, but anyway, you're not making any sense. You called Hungary backwards a whole bunch of times and then later admited you don't really think Hungary is backwards, because youre just assuming ignorance to show me how you think my logic works against me. Yes you really are a clever man.

I didn't say you called yourself ignorant, again you have problems with comprehension. I said that you admitted you're assuming an ignorant stance in this thread. Whether it's a little pretence or not to highlight how what you perceive to be my ignorance works against me is another matter, the fact is that you're purposely being ignorant, and you admit it.

So again! thanks for admitting you're being ignorant. You should have just admitted at the beginning of the thread when I called you on it.

As for my ‘line of thinking' being ignorant, I don't admit that at all. I just observe that you are being ignorant. I know that you believe in your head you are making a clever little subversive point, but you’re not because you’re not really 'mirroring of my views’, so you're just acting like an idiot for nor reason. I don't regard Hungary as backwards, I don't regard only 14 people in the world as true Westerners and everybody else as backwards scum. In fact there are a lot of countries in the world I admire in a lot of ways, and they don't fit your criteria of 'western'. I just regard despotic shitholes like the Middle East as backwards because they lack the ability/desire to conform to modern standards of acceptable political behavior. You're picking semantics with me (arguing that Hungary are not Western), to try and refute my view point is a waste of effort on your part because I'll happily ADOPT your definition of what western is, ridiculous as it may be, and say that Hungary is NOT Western. It makes no DIFFERENCE to me. Hungary has a modern political system and belongs to a different group of countries than shitholes Like Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan ect. Say Hungary is not Western all you like, as if I care. If you want to refute my perspective you have to prove that countries that fit the bill of what I consider Western are really no better than odious Arab and African countries. Ill laugh all day at your feeble attempts to argue this because it’s just laughable PC dogma that has credence nowhere but in the minds of tediously egalitarian folks like yourself.

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As for me being a pseudo intelectual, surely a hard core intellectual like yourself could come upo with a less banal descryptive term than that to describe one. haha

 

oh honestly Vlad, shut up. your're not western for Gods sake.