Good now all that remains is for you to convince the various sects that Islam no longer practices religious heterodoxy.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Especially the Salafis who probably don't even consider Sufis as Muslims. From all Islamic nations? Where are most of these immigrants coming from? Which are in themselves rather recent wouldn't you say? Do you hold all nations to a standard which 60 years ago were not met even by educated Westerners? The Holocaust did not happen in Morocco or Palestine Geoff, yet it is the Palestinians who have paid most for it, after the Jews of course. American interest in the ME followed British interest which followed the dilineation of the ME countries by the British for economic interests. The ME is a creation of Western economic chess with the countries as pawns. The promised independence by the British was promptly set aside for oil interests, its been an ongoing drama since 1927, not an overnight phenomenon. Qutb too used to be a little known social reformer before being tortured by one of many dictators supported by the regime. Defending the Saudis? Come now, don't tell me you too resort to the "terrorist supporter" cry to circumvent Western responsibility. I'm not the one who's kissing the Sauds or forming pacts with them to ensure the hegemony of the dollar. Lets not lose sight of who's really supporting the Sauds here. Islam's ascendence in the Western world? What a laugh! What paranoia is this that gives reality to something that has so little chance of ever occuring while completely ignoring the very real problems of Western ascendency in the ME? What think you of the realities of 80 years of war in Palestine? The twice-occupied Lebanon? The Iran-Iraq war? The support for genocidal regimes and dictatorships? The present war in Iraq? Do all these portend Islamic ascendency to you? Or a backlash from extremist groups? Them vs Us: Regardless, you hold a closed community to standards only recently achieved by the West. The Holocaust, I repeat, did not happen in the Middle East. Education can and does change things but to expect a culture to fast forward while simultaneously exploiting and demonising them, supporting or causing fundamentalist groups to be formed is incredulous beyond description. Very eloquent and completely ignoring the fact that the Jews were forced to leave due to the very real terror of anti-Semitism in the very advanced West. As for the pains over a small thorn: that is exactly what Israelis are fighting for isn't it? A small thorn? I'm not even going there, but if you're interested: http://www.cactus48.com/mandate.html http://www.cactus48.com/partition.html http://www.cactus48.com/statehood.html And the whole document: http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html Hopefully, but I think your hypothetical concerns seem less certain than the very real circumstances under which people in the ME find themselves, and your desire to decrease fundamentalism should also consider how it is being supported and nourished by those who claim to want democracy in this region.
You seem to ignore the fact that the sharia is imposed by the government, consisting mainly of dictatorships and that the rules are as flexible as the government wants them to be. Which ME/Islamic government has been democratically elected? Which secular regime supported by the West?
Sam, you're moving down a very slippery slope here, in that you're claiming Arabic cannot be accurately translated into English. Are you prepared to argue and back this line of thinking?
So, are you now claiming that all Muslims completely understand archaic Arabic and the Judeo-Christian cultural references? Again, sam, a very slippery slope. From your link, sam: "fewer than 20 percent of Muslims speak Arabic, this means that most Muslims study the text only in translation."
Actually what I have always claimed is that most Muslims do NOT pick up the Quran as an adjunct to decision making. They merely follow the philosophy of the religion as learned from teachers and scholars. Its only the non-Muslims who pore over every word and try to connect dots that don't exist.
But, less than 20 percent read the Quran in Arabic. How many of them actually understand it based on their knowledge of archaic Arabic and the Judeo-Christian cultural references? A much less percentage, no less. So, a huge body of people learn the Quran from translations, as do non-Muslims. And yes, sam, they do use the Quran for decision making. Slippin' and a sliddin' there, sam. Be careful.
Oh stop with the slippery slope already! How many Muslims do you know? Ask them how many of them refer to translations while reading the Quran. You ascribe people with a religiosity they rarely possess, let alone the time and inclination for indepth religious study. The practice of the religion along with the general rules of behaviour suffices most. The only people who can be said to be aware of what they are reading are those who speak Arabic and even for them, interpretations are based on what they have been taught by scholars and are regulated by access to information by the government. Its not as cut and dried as you perceive it to be. In general most people follow rules based on their society and community, which is why any Islamic country can have divergent rules from the Saud's hijab to Saddam's freedom for women, without exciting comment. Basically education will improve the way people think without much difficulty. The biggest source of information about the Quran and its verses today, ironically, is the violent interpretations propagated by so-called Western media, from jihad (which was never associated with violence) to Islamofascism, which has been lapped up by fundamentalist groups to recruit young men. Those who really study the religion, like me or Ghost, would never fall for crap like that.
Muslim: I would have thought a Muslim is someone who believes in the Middle Eastern version of a single all powerful and all knowing God-Head with a special emphasis on the character named Mohammed and the book called the Qur’an. I know some Muslims who think the following: - That the words of the Qur’an are pure Arabic. - That the Qur’an is perfect. - That Mohammed never committed a sin nor an evil deed. - That the Bible and Torah are in some manner in error. - That under the appropriate conditions Muslim men can take up to 4 wives. - That it was fine for Mohammed to take many more than 4 wives because he was “special”. - That many Jews are a “race” and that many are nefarious. - That the Square rock in Saudi Arabia is special to the God-head. - That homosexuality is wicked in the eyes of God. - That their ego will survive death. - That the God-head uses the carrot&stick approach giving some men Virgin Women in heaven. - That the belief in polytheism is in error. - That God punishes people in the “afterlife”. - The reason why all Muslim societies are in shambles has nothing to do with Islam but that the “true” will of God isn’t being carried out properly and that if people would only do XXX then everything would be fine. - That a “true” Islamic society would be superior to a Secular one. - Last weekend a poll showed that 98% of Indonesian Muslims think it should be a crime for a Muslims to switch religions. Pretty much an Arabic twist on the question “What is a Xian?” or so I suppose. Michael I know a few Atheist people that are “Islamic”. Which is nice Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I wonder: What is “Islam”?
Can you imagine? Shocking really. Reminds me of that Jesus boot-camp Video. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
They too were innocent! The quilty party here are the adults who indoctrinate children, when they don't understand the implication of religious devotion. They are told these "truths" and they don't question them, such as an older teen perhaps would. Children are the innocent, who suffer their parents delusional mental state of being zealots, or mildly get indoctrinated "by force" cause sure as hell they don't go willingly to a church mosk or sunday school. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1-nj2tePvM
Just curious, do atheists teach their children about all religions then? Do they not "indoctrinate" them against religion?
I woulnd't know Sam, I'm not a parent! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And BTW one can't "indoctrinate" against religion, this is a fallacy as there is no tradition in atheism as there is any religious sect. I suppose the parents of an atheist child would let the kid decide when he/she's old enough to understand religious doctrine. I didn't grow up in an atheistic family. And yet I "grew" out of my indoctrination of childhood.
Well then there wouldn't appear to be any indoctrination towards religion either, after all my family cannot be called religious by any stretch (degenerates is what we are known as, I believePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! )
Indeed; not all. But see Michael's post below - especially regarding the attitudes of Indonesian muslims to conversion. Islam is all very well, individually or in abstract. Yet, majorities seem to choose political islam, always. Look at the posts of "Muslim" himself. There is that basic sympathy for a worldview where everything is always explained and good. I myself have been susceptible to such a view, in the past. And, inevitably, it calls for suppression of "the other", whether such other represents a threat or not. Do apostates really represent a threat to the state of Indonesia? Do they bomb things, blow things up, murder? No. So - while I have hopes for islam, I have no real expectation of their fruition. And there is little doubt that while some consider "striving with their lives" reinterpretable as something non-violent, it is very, very easy to get a message of war from it: which the history of islam will attest to. Best of luck and all the best, Geoff
