What does it mean to have Random Mutations?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by 786, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    nice a

    catching aids

    or even a mole and freckles

    i have even seen mutations by radiation

    do they convey in procreations?

    I see more blonds in so cal, then in the middle east

    and more with aids, and sickle cell in africa

    is the environment having anything to do with any of these?

    hence the uncertainty principle is like a fart; just butt-burps putting a stink in the air

    and lot's of people can smell the stink, but as ooooosual the originators are the last to accept the responsibility
     
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  3. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    If in the germ line, yes. These are rarer proportionally than somatic anomalies.

    With those? Some but not too much, comparatively.

    Impressive. This was the first time that I've ever seen offensive bodily noises compared to mutation and drift.

    Please, God, let it be the last.
     
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  5. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,046
    I believe these are termed lesions , as I learned earlier this week. Lesions get repaired, and in bacterial cells this is the only difference between a lesion and a mutation- the lesions get repaired while mutations are passed on.

    Mutations aren't 100% random, they are usually centered around hot spots. There are different types of mutating mechanisms and mutagens, and they usually act at specific sites in DNA.
     
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  7. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    so an evolution, and it wasn't random.............

    i agree, comparing our last few hundred years of measuring with a few billion is peanuts.

    likewise, you drifted from the comprehension that causality is not based on anything random; your comment was kind of mutation in itself (twisting up conveyed information with your words)



    Please, let it be the last.
     
  8. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    so is there a flavor to mutations that focusing on random hot spots?

    mutegens.......... is that like a carcinogen that is randomly causing a change
     
  9. thinking Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,504
    I disagree

    actually wouldn't carcinogen that causes change be more about what is vulnerable to change , rather than random change ?

    I think so
     
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    No, an evolution, and it was random.

    I said nothing of the kind. Where did the original blond gene come from? Special creation?

    Likewise, your comment had not the slightest to do with anything. Why don't you just state what your position on random mutation is clearly? I infer that you don't believe in it, but beyond that no reasons of yours are evident.

    I regret to inform you that it will not.
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,102
    The "survival of the fittest" notion is not "counter" to the existence or relative prevalence of random mutations. The degree of randomness in the variations selected for "fitness" is not specified, but is certainly greater than none - and can easily be total.

    In the context of this discussion, the mutation is the change in the gene or chromosome. Any observed change from the parent type would be the somatic expression of it. There may be no expression of a given mutation - it may make no difference at all.

    {attribution corrected, abject apologies}
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    He said hot spots, not random hot spots. Give it a shake.

    Yes.
     
  13. thinking Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,504
    no it isn't

    evolution is not random
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Well, actually a fair proportion of it probably is. There've been a few meta-analyses of selection and drift in the past; all sort of whistling past the graveyard, but they're probably not far wrong.
     
  15. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

    Messages:
    2,720

    Where did you get that definition?

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    I’ve never seen phenotype included in any definition of ‘mutation’. I distinctly remember the definition that was given to me way back as a genetics student at uni.....

    “A mutation is a heritable change in DNA sequence.”

    This definition is totally independent of any effects on phenotype. And, interestingly, the word “heritable” in that sentence means that any change to DNA sequence in a somatic cell is not, by that definition, a "mutation".
     
  16. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    jeff...........


    some observe the accepted BELIEFs of the uncertainty principle underlying todays physics

    i don't

    to me: random is not an option

    what else do you want me to say!

    i do not walk the planck and why i am not drowning with the idea of random chaotic maybes

    i am far too causal with reality and the sciences

    you don't have to like it
     
  17. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    and your "probably" wrong in all cases were the cause of the change is identified

    random lives in the graveyard; when causality is identified

    ie... where is ptolemy's math NOW
     
  18. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,046
    and

    Its hard to argue there is no selection, but it seems that selection is only one part of evolution.



    Yes, hot spots are particular sequences in DNA that are affected by more mutations than others. The reasons are several - some mutations are the result of natural processes in the cell, others are caused by transposons that only recognize specific sequences. Even DNA mimics work only on certain bases by mis-pairing with a different nucleotide. I do not think I have learned of any mutation that would be 100% independent of the sequence on which it acts.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,102
    Yes, and - ?

    The standard shorthand formulation is 1) heritable variations appear 2) culling happens.
     
  20. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,046
    You are misquoting me in post #68 unless its from another thread.

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    The culling only happens in a part of the changes, very often even a strongly beneficial mutation is lost among a large amount of random variation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,102
    In which case no evolution occurs.

    (attribution fixed above)
     
  22. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    kind of like what i see all over; the culling of idea, even the good ones; get lost in the random
     
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Bishadi, your intricate grasp of the blindingly obvious staggers me. OF COURSE it isn't random where a cause can be assigned at some reasonable level of significance. Are you congenitally stupid?
     

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