Was satan really evil or is it just exaggerated propoganda?

I would think an "all-loving" and "all-powerful" God could find a much better route than killing. It sounds as if you are once again making excuses for the behavior of "god" in this story.
If the god in the bible could cause the red sea to part...let Jesus perform miracles such as turning water into wine...raising the dead..healing the sick.. why couldn't he also find another avenue without killing children? I'm sorry...but, I think it's pretty twisted.

Could have...but, I guess we'll never know for they were never given the chance. Again, I believe that it could have been just as easy for "god" to come up with a better route than killing them. Just shows me he didn't want to take the time to find one, and instead made a sorry excuse to kill.

No, the mortal price they paid was because "god" was too lazy to find a means for them to live.

I don't mean to sound rude, Jenyar but that is exactly how I feel. This is all I see in this story and other scriptures I have posted.
In them "god's" whole attitude is: do as I say or I'm going to kill you and your children oh and on top of that, you'll live forever in hell where you will be tormented. It has evil and bully written all over it.

 

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dr lou

u are naive. even the fresh nice smiling grocer may reveal a hidden monster given ultimate power- and even including thyself. u really had no concept of true evil. now u have.

 

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I know that's how you feel. I'm trying to show you that that feeling, despite what you might think, is not rational.

You misunderstand: the Bible was written within the same reality we live in now. We still have floods and natural disasters. We still have some people blaming God, some blaming humanity, and others praying to God for help and doing their utmost to provide assistance.

It was no different then. They didn't live in some magical reality where the difference between God's actions and natural events were black and white evident. What they have was prophesies, warnings, belief and faith. What we have from them are the same prophesies and warnings, our own beliefs and faith, and comparisons between them. The common characteristic between then and now is a relationship with God, or not.

People die, whether you believe in God or not. It's a fact of life that I doubt you will argue.

For some reason, you use the worlds "kill", "forever" and "tormented", along with "evil" and "bully". Listen to yourself. I know you're trying to imagine this "god" and then play devil's advocate, but you're not making sense. You don't beleve in God, but you make these claims about Him. These terms only have meaning within a human context, which is not what the flood story was. What is the difference between being killed by God and dying naturally? What is the difference between a scary reality and a threatening prediction? What is the difference between good and evil?

These people's natural lives were shortened, cut off from God's mercy - which was bestowed on those who did believe in Him: Noah and his family. Everybody who heard Noah's flood warning had the chance to save themselves, build their own boats or repent - and God's mercy would have extended to them. You see the same parallel with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The same thing with hell. God knows there is a disaster coming (that the prophets called Armageddon, judgement day, etc.) - He has been warning people about it since they could understand. His final warning was when an innocent man died (much like your babies) on a cross. When we see innocent people die, we are reminded of the need for justice. We are also reminded that we might also be judged. Noah's story was also a warning.

The inevitability and indiscrimination of death is neither a threat nor a comfort, it is a reality we live with every day. It isn't a scare tactic or even a lack of choice.

There is a flood coming. DO you want protection against it or not? When the earth is destroyed, and everything turns to hell, you won't be able to accuse God as you are doing now. Nature will take its course, people will die. That is simply they way things are. Whether your life will be saved from hell - your lifetime extended eternally under God's mercy - is simply a decision between heeding the warning or not.

 

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Jenyar,

They didn't live in some magical reality

No? How about Job 39:9-10 KJV:

9: Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

10: Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

There are many more references to unicorn in the bible, but didn't feel it was necessary to quote them all.

What is the difference between being killed by God and dying naturally? What is the difference between a scary reality and a threatening prediction? What is the difference between good and evil?

What is the difference if Sally was intentionally run over by someone driving a car and accidentally being hit by a vehicle?

These people's natural lives were shortened, cut off from God's mercy - which was bestowed on those who did believe in Him: Noah and his family. Everybody who heard Noah's flood warning had the chance to save themselves, build their own boats or repent - and God's mercy would have extended to them.

Sure the heck wasn't extended to those babies or children or animals now...was it? You still haven't answer why an all-powerful and all-loving "god" couldn't have found another avenue to save those children. He can do so many things...all except save those tiny children from HIS wrath?

He has been warning people about it since they could understand.

Wow, that's awful nice of him considering he was the one that CREATED hell to begin with. Well, now one can escape hell if they will simply hear and obey..."his will" or the highway to hell for you..
Jenyar, in a nutshell: In the bible God demands people obey and follow him...if they don't he paints the most graphic violent threats. He punishes children for something their parents had done (IE killing them). How freaking fair is that? He goes around killing whomever for whatever reason... it could be something as small as a person who tries to stop the ark of the covenant from dropping and shattering into a million pieces- There wasn't a "hey, thank you for trying to protect it" It was zip-zap-ka-bam! God killed him. For all of those who choose not to believe him because perhaps they need proof or had never had the chance hear his "word" etc... They go to hell- and from there they are tortured for all eternity.

I would think a God of all the universe would be above such a thing as to threaten to kill someone for simply not doing what he wants. I would think a true God would be above jealousy and anger and not having to come up with excuses for having them (ie holy anger etc) I would think an all-loving God would not have created hell, because his love would be so deep and strong that he couldn't begin to think of such a place. I'm not a parent, but I am an aunt, and I know how deeply I love my nieces. I can only imagine the love of parent and child. I would imagine if you took a poll here, you wouldn't find one loving and stable parent that would be willing to create such a place for their child -even if the child went against their wishes.

Now, I know you want to jump in and state that God's love and ideas and actions and justifications for killing etc are all spiritual, and therefore we could't possibly understand. Some who followed Jim Jones thought that drinking the poisoned kool-aid was the correct thing to do as well. However, there are those of us who know that's just wrong- how brainwashed those people must have been to have followed such a "leader".

 

Satan is a good guy

Satan as I see him exhibits all the good qualities we attribute to a hero.

He is tireless, always on the job, no vacations.

He is loyal to his cause and to his agreement with god.

Even though he's hated by almost everyone he stays the course.

He's enthousiastic.

he's patient.

He'll do anything to please man.



Wouldn't you want someone like him to work for you?What are the rest of the so called angels doing? Playing with their harp?

 

KJV: unicorn
NAS: wild ox
Hebrew: Ra'em (from the verb Ra'am "to rise")
Probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.
- The OT Hebrew Lexicon

None. Sally is dead. You can take the driver to court a court who will judge the man's driving according to the law. By what laws do you judge God? Yours? Read Job again.

Yes it was, yes He did. Who created them in the first place? There were people and animals on the ark, remember. When ask who was saved, it puts things into perspective: the remnant of God's original creation.

Funny that you should shout justice on one side, and shout injustice on the other. Hell is the Greek translation for what the Hebrews simply called Sheol, the grave. Death. Apparently it's not a nice place to spend eternity in. What you are thinking of is the "pool of fire", where Satan and death will be cast into. Satan's last hold on you is the hold death has on you. What would you say: if a person is 50% good and 50% evil, should he be punished for doing bad, or rewarded for doing good? What if a person has been a saint for his whole life, but on one "bad" day killed a single person. How much or little punishment does he deserve? A life for a life, or a day for a day?

Sin leads to death leads to Satan leads to hell. Repentance leads to God leads to life leads to heaven.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

You don't seem to see the difference between being punished, and being killed.

What isn't fair for a human, because we can't resurrect people from the dead, could be fair for God, because He can save you afterwards. Our ability to choose wrong and intention to sin is limited to this life only - it ends with death - and this life is where you must make your decision.

What gives you the idea that all death is God's work? Death might be indiscriminate, but God certainly isn't.

Disobedience to God might be a small thing for you. God evidently thinks otherwise. The ark had handles for supporting it - there were even specifications about them - it should have been carried by priests, not carted around by oxes. God expects obedience, not protection.

People who need more proof than there already is, don't want to accept that God exists in the first place. If you don't believe in God, you won't believe that He could reach you, and you shut yourself to Him. But I think you've stopped looking for God at your own doorstep.

You will be surprised how many so-called "primitive" or "unenlightened" people do believe in God. Going to hell is a choice, and getting burned is a consequence, like stepping into fire. When someone steps into a fire, does he shout "I'm being tortured! I'm being tortured!"? Similarly, death is a consequence.

The greatest love you can show anyone is to die for them, because you love them more than life itself. Jesus died for people who did not believe in God, so that they could. He broke the hold death had over us as a final destination. If there weren't evil in this world, your love would have been sufficient.

Once again: death is not a "threat", it is a reality. No amount of human love can change it, only God's love can. We don't quite understand it, but the only way of putting it in words is:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

This isn't a statement of exclusivity, but of inclusivity. Of course, everybody would like to receive that gift without being expected to believe in God as well, but then heaven would be exactly the same place you are living in now.

You come closest to the truth here. It is our ability to perceive right and wrong that makes us different from people who don't see that difference. That knowledge it taught - it isn't natural. People have the natural desire to live only for themselves. We can't imagine the kind of responsibility God has, because we don't have the ability to make moral laws. We can only agree on the extent to which we will adhere to His laws. You seem to have the idea of a vengeful, hateful and inconsistent God, and it comes from the belief that you are outside God's grace. You aren't: your abilities to live, to love and to decide come from God. Decay and death is the result of our separation from God - that is the separation He wants us to mend by accepting Him again.

 

Of course

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Well, it matters a lot to me whether the driver's act was intentional or not. If someone ran over a loved one , say your wife, child, friend, and they intended to kill them- would that not piss you off to no end? Would you not be outraged? If that driver didn't mean to- sure, you'd be upset at what happened, but most would have an understanding that the person's actions were not deliberate.

Doesn't the scripture say thou shalt not kill? Seems "god" is going against his own law. Oh, I finally get it...this is a, "do as I say not as I do" religion. Doesn't seem to set a very good example, but sure helps the christians to use their creativity in covering "god's" butt.

Okay, maybe I'm not making myself clear. Let me put it in question form below:

1) How was "god's" grace extended to those babies and children? Via their parents? Isn't that why they were killed, because of their parents actions?

2) Why couldn't an "all-powerful and "all-loving" "god" have found another avenue to save those children. He can do so many things...all except save those tiny children from HIS wrath?

Nevertheless, according to the bible sinners will be cast to this hell fire with Satan and his angels.
(Matthew 25:41)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Then there is the story you can read Luke 16:19-31

It's pretty obvious according to the bible that the authors or ummm "god" speaks of sinners in the "lake of fire"

Hmm.. 1 Samuel 15
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

You can justify why those children and babies died?

I didn't mean to imply that all death is "god's" work- just certain stories, and others not pointed out, that we have talked about thus far.

What a BULLY! Forget the fact that the dude was only trying to help out...he didn't cross his t and dot his i just right...another excuse for "god" to kill- he really gets into throwing his weight around, doesn't he?

Have you heard of Snakelord's giant green headed turtle?

I think it's pretty messed up that "god" would have his son to die on the cross in order to cover sins. It took his son dying a brutal death to give a way for others to go to heaven? Why? Why create a "lake of fire"? The biblical god is most violent-

 

That's life, isn't it? Some things we would like to happen, others we wouldn't. Sometimes we lose people we love, other times people die who we didn't know. Don't get me wrong, I'm the last person to promote insensitivity. But if death is part of nature, and God gave life, then whenever a person doesn't die, it is an act of God. There is also an argument going around that by not saving everybody, God intentionally kills everybody.

When God shortens the lives of some people because they have thrown His gift of life back in His face, I think He has every right to. The problem comes when you see life as something you deserved. What did anybody do to deserve life? If you can't answer that, how can you ask whether people "deserved" death?

You didn't read what I said. When we take life, we are taking something we cannot give back. We are playing god if do things that are the prerogative of God - like judging whether a person deserves life or death, heaven or hell. God can give life back, and He can take it when He wants to. Life belongs to God in the first place - not to us. Why do you think God made that law? Just because?

1) What is really problematic with your judgement, is how do you decide when a child starts being accountable for the society he lives in? If there is no possibility that they can learn what is good, will they be able to turn out "good" anyway? Is "good" and "bad" genetic, as Dr. Lou Natic thinks? I doubt it. Up until how old would *you* have saved children? Those chidren did not have the chance to be corrupted by their parents, or to become guilty of the sins of their parents. God wants people to teach their children what is right and wrong, to set a good example. Now you know why this is important. Children often have to live with the legacy of bad parenting. Fortunately, death puts an end to anything we can inherit from our parents, then we inherit directly from God, our heavenly Father.

Proverbs 14:32
When calamity comes, the wicked are brought down, but even in death the righteous have a refuge.

NB. Again, this is the prerogative of God to decide. When people start deciding whether death is merciful or not, you get things like the Inquisition (when Christians killed people "to save their souls"

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!), Euthanasia, and many other judgement calls that cannot be made laws because people should not enforce them.

Sin is like chains that bind you to a master, sometimes called Satan. Whether you believe in Satan or not, the principle remains true. If you are a thief, you are a slave to thievery, and unless you stop stealing, you will die a thief. Whether you are a slave depends on who you listen to - who your master is. If you think of yourself as your own master, then you must save yourself ("work off your karma" as some put it). Can you save yourself from death? Now ask the question again: who do you belong to, whose "child" are you, nature (that gives you death), or God (who gives you life)? Of course, you cannot stop being part of nature, but your choice governs your future decisions - who you listen to. Do you give in to your nature, or do you listen to God?

No I can't. And neither can you, which is what you are doing if you pronounce someone "innocent". You are playing judge over whether someone deserves to die or not. If you look at that footnote [1], you'll see "the Hebrew term (Charam) refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD, often by totally destroying them." By the laws of the land, it was justice to retaliate against an attacking army - because they are your enemy, but the spiritual implication is much more than that. They became enemies of God when they attacked His chosen people. Earlier in the chapter you'll read that the Kenites were warned and spared because they showed kindness to the Israelites.

That "dude" was an Israelite, fully aware of what the laws were. But he spent so much time in the preence of the ark that he became used to it. He became too familiar with God, and lost respect for Him. He did not tell his friends "hey, dudes, you forgot God asked the priests to carry the ark! Unless the priests turned into oxes, I think we should stop and think here for a moment." Nope, he thought, "Never fear when Uzzah is near! The Lord's covenant is safe in my hands!" I think he'll get to say sorry when he appears before God, though.

1)Never take your life for granted 2)Never take God's protection for granted 3)Never presume to know better than God, you are not in a position to judge.

Only from him (and maybe the DiscWorld novels), and there's a reason for it. It has no history, no people, no promise or covenant, no priests who knows its laws, no prophets to bring its message, no authority, no mercy - in short: if it exists at all, I have no reason to believe it can change, rule, or save my life. There is no way of getting to know it besides asking Snakelord.

The Bible didn't appear yesterday, you know. I think if they were available and you could have an original copy of each of its scrolls, with blood stains, dust and burnt edges, you would take it more seriously.

Jesus died to break the hold death and sin had on us - "so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 5:21). Just as His death was brutal, undeserving and terrible, so His resurrection was glorious, deserving and wonderous. Are you starting to see how God is glorified? By the folly of things like human strength, selfishness, idolatry, greed and adultery, so "weakness", the "stupidity of faith", the "impossibility of God", the pain of people who suffer because these things, those without hope, the oppressed and the helpless, can enjoy the victory of truth and justice and be comforted and restored. These are the people who will thank God, those called "blessed" in the Bible.

If we were gods, dying and getting up would be staple events. If people were more like Jesus, He would have died of old age. But God knew people would not accept Jesus, just like they would not accept Him. Just like people would not accept Noah, they could not accept the ark.

Maybe the lake of fire is symbolic. Have you ever considered that? I mean, we hardly expect lakes and fire to exist where things don't swim or burn. In that sense, "torment" can also not be used in the conventional way. The truth is, we have no idea how eternal things could be either contained or banished. Maybe a "lake of fire" is as good as any description for "that which is necessary" and "inevitable". I can imagine that it must be like a lie having to face the truth for eternity, because it cannot stop being a lie - that is what it is. And if you believe a lie, then you will have to face the truth along with it. Maybe they will just burn up and cease to exist, or cease to have knowledge of themselves (can a lie believe itself if it is faced with the truth of its nature?). Fire in Greek is pur, in O.French and Latin pur or purus means 'clean' or 'unmixed', as in purify. You could explore that thought.

 

[idiot mode]
This topic is rather lame, it would be like asking if
Superman`s Lex Luthor isnt really a bad guy.
Naturally satan is a bad, after all he`s just a convict
living in a prison of fire and lava. [/idiotmode]


This topic is rather dumb, no offense.
Satan,Lucifer,Belsebub, is naturally evil itself. He went against
god, became fallen. One may question why god can kill and
others not. and the answer is simple.....he can because he is
god. Hes not human or a living beeing, hes a god. The most
typical mistakes people does is to think and jugde him as a
human.

 

Who is Satan and why is he stalking you?

You are rather lame and dumb, no offense. If your Satan existed, he would be no more powerful than an angel. That is what he was allegedly created as--not a human, not a god. Learn your material before you start preaching it.

 

Re: Who is Satan and why is he stalking you?

Wench!I did not say he was a human nor a god. Learn my
material? Pffft, learn proper interprenation

 

You just have to have faith. The giant green turtle need not tell you, don't try and look upon him in human terms. If you truly sit down and open your heart to him, he will appear. Since when did someone ancient have to talk about something for it to exist?

What's that got to do with anything? So, it becomes more probable if i go get a big bunch of followers to believe what i say? Admittedly that's probably quite a bit harder in modern day times than it would have been to accomplish several thousand years ago.

I fail to see the relevance. Why must there be promises? Does a god need to make promises to you, a mere little mortal? Ha! Don't make me laugh.

The giant green headed turtle doesn't like priests. He'd rather you find him for yourself than listen to some money grabbing paedophile lunatic with a white collar.

Again i fail to see the relevance. You must sit down and find him for yourself.

What's the point? For a godly being to exist it needs to change, rule and save your life? Don't be silly. If it did, that would make it more of a human than a god.

What has it got to do with me? You have to sit down and find him for yourself, i just brought it up in general discussion.

What for? Do you take Enuma Elish, Gilgamesh, descent of ishtar, seven evil spirits, etc etc seriously?

It has history, (older than the bible)
It had people, (and technically still does, because many people still read the bible which is to great lengths a close copy of thos texts)
etc etc etc.. All your pointers could be applied here.

Do we now take those texts as facts? Was tiamat a real god, was gilgamesh a half man/half god? etc etc. We can just accept it as total and utter fact but that's still a tad presumptuous.

My green headed giant turtle might not have any of the things you listed but we can find a whole host of things that do. Does that make them all undeniable? Of course not.

 

Hmm, does God know that such event would help? If God knew it was a waste of time and energy, what's the point to create such event? To prove He was wrong? Or He wants to say "I told you so!"

Obviously God had failed miserablely again. The flood didn't purify anything. Human are still as corrupted as they were, or even worse than before.

 

Jenyar,

To tell you the truth you have my head spinning and hurting because I keep hitting it against my desk as I read your posts. You should be a politician because you can dance around a subject like nobody's business..Sometimes you think the scriptures are to be taken literal, others as symbolic... Don't get me wrong, everyone is entitled to how they feel and think etc.. But you state these as facts.

You think "god" couldn't possibly be so mean or cruel to have created a "lake of fire", and send sinners there with the devil and his demons... yet time and time again it is stated in the bible. It seems very convenient that you should happen to find "lake of fire" as symbolic- Is that how you interpret the bible -if it doesn't make sense, say it's symbolic?

I find a contradiction and you don't even acknowledge that it is, you go right into the whole dance routine again. See below:

Your reference:

and mine:

Then when talking about the children and babies who were killed by "god" during "The Flood"- this is what you come up with:

So are you saying "god" killed them prior to them being corrupted? Is that your justification? Why doesn't he just kill every living soul when they are a child before they become"corrupted"? Sounds pretty sick, doesn't it? I must admit- I laughed when I read how "god" wants people to set a good example.

Look, I know you are saying because "god" is who he is -that gives him the right to do whatever the heck he feels. He can kill, steal, rape etc... and it is all justified because he is "god". Yes, I think a God could possess the power to do those things, but I find it rather hard to believe that a God of the universe would be on such a low level as to act on them. I don't think a true God would set examples by throwing little baby fits if he doesn't get his way...nor would he kill people to prove a point , nor would he create a place of torture to send people because they don't "understand" and see eye to eye with him. Think about it- you feel it is 100% okay for him to have killed the man who touched the ark of the covenant -all because he didn't follow exact orders. That's a bit harsh.

I think the bible illustrates a god who abuses his power- If any man or woman were running for a political office..and they exhibited these disturbing actions of "god", it would be a cold day in hell before I'd vote for them. I realize they are human..but, do you honestly think a God would lower himself to the degree of the "god" in the bible?

Quite frankly, Jenyar...all I'm seeing from you are excuses for why you believe/think "god" is so- well..brutal. I just can't see a true God being so full of himself that he would use his power in that manner.

Regarding the giant green headed turtle, Snakelord made excellent points. Nothing to add there

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hmmm, very stirring. look, boys- a catfight
seriously, these are all valid points. and full marks for artistic interpretation....hmmm, technically, ya score a 4. well done!

 

heart

I wish I could present you with a short course on textual analysis, layering, rhethoric and typology... but I doubt it would overcome your prejudice. You can just ask if you want to know, but i guess you would rather just dismiss it with a wave of the hand while rolling your eyes like

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God did create a "lake of fire" as indicated in Matthew 25. That the phrase is symbolic or literal makes no difference to its existence, but might to its nature. Cruelty is your word for it. Why don't you look a little closer to home, where poor innocent people are habitually condemned to such cruel and unusual punishments as life imprisonment and manual labour, such grievous abuse of their privacy by summoning them to court, such discrimination and injustice as some indiscriminate group of people assumes authority over them and consequently presumes to enforce their own nebulous morality on them, such torture as to relive their experiences in a small room full of prejudiced people accusing them, when they only did what came natural to them. We're such hypocrites, aren't we?

Maybe you should read the Tale of Two cities and redefine your conception of a contradiction.

1)Each is to die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16) and will be judged by his own guilt.
2)Punishment can extend to their descendants (Ex. 20:5) - How does the saying go? "For every man who goes to prison, there are three children and a wife left home alone". They're not guilty, but they share the punishment in their own way.

What was the crime of the Amalekites?

Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God.

Who do you think "were lagging behind"? The strong young soldiers? Who are you defending?

Where do the Amalekites come from?

They live in the hills and valleys of the Negev/Negeb (Num.13:29 and 14:25) - neither near Egypt or Canaan (The map of the Exodus). They would have had to purposefully travel south across Sinai to intercept the Israelites at Rephidim "where there was no water for the people to drink" (Num.33:14).

The Amalekites were descendants of Esau, and would have known about God's covenant with Jacob. God proclaimed Israel to be holy, and set the land of Canaan apart for them. We also know that some of the Amalekites did survive, because they were still attacking people at the time of David (1 Sam. 27). This is the time when Samuel executed the Amalekite king, saying: "As your sword has made women childless, so will your mother be childless among women."

Aren't you glad you're not an Israelite, then?

Numbers 1
51 Whenever the tabernacle is to move, the Levites are to take it down, and whenever the tabernacle is to be set up, the Levites shall do it. Anyone else who goes near it shall be put to death.

God is not someone who jumped up from behind and killed this man. He enforced a law that would keep His people holy. "Be holy, for I am holy", was His exact words. God's justice and holiness is not negotiable. Maybe you would like it to be, but it isn't and will never be. Why doesn't America negotiate with terrorists? Because once they do, they will look like fools and hypocrites. Even less will God allow His name to be compromised.

Once again, I do not presume to justify anything God does. I am honestly trying to make you realize the nature of your justification. The children were really victims of the crimes of their parents and their lawless society - that's why I say parents have more responsibility than they realize. Many children today are born with addictions and diseases also because of their parents. To answer your question: God lets people live because God created people to live. Only when it became evident they were living but not learning or showing the kind of respect you say you have for the sanctity and gift of life, that He made the moral decision to exact justice on them.

To quote another author: God's actions are symmetrical - action and patience, punishment and mercy. You seem to suggest that He exhibits only one side of justice and not the other. I'm trying to show you that you are being blind to the distinction between the two. It is the kind of destinction we as people like to see as "laws". You will notice, however, that God's reactions are asymmetrical: He favours mercy of punishment, patience over action. 1000 generations vs. three generations.

So, because you consciously choose to focus on the punishment, you simply deny the mercy.

Here's a little exercise for you: go stand outside a court for a day or two, then write down how many people enter it, and the percentage of them who come out guilty. By your thinking, the more people who come out innocent, the less the judge is "abusing his power", and the more people who are sentenced to prison, the more cruel the judge.

Isaiah 57
1 The righteous perish, and no-one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no-one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.
2 Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death.

That is exactly what I am not saying. In fact, I think this mentality is the cause of why you think God is so unjust.

My opinion is that justice is justified. What can you possily own that does not come from God? You came into this world with nothing, and you will leave with nothing. Death is a neutral form of justice. As people, death is the antithesis of everything we hold dear, but we are simply on the negative side of it. Our "life sentences" are becoming shorter and shorter by the day - whether it is by nature, punishment, accident, or crime, we all die. Only, God will resurrect us and then judge us.

Do you see how you belittle God and judgement? A God who throws "baby fits" would also have laws that sometimes go unpunished and other times are taken seriously. What kind of law would that be? The laws are supposed to expose sin so that it can be recognized and avoided. You don't think god should be holy, or that holiness is such a big deal, but that's because you don't believe in a holy God. You don't think a "pool of fire" is warranted, because you think heaven wouldn't be so bad with a few people around who could get away with sin. Don't you see that once you compromise on holiness, you compromise on justice, and you let sin in to cause the same kind of world we live in today? A simple rap over the fingers would not have fit the seriousness of the crime.

Leviticus 22:32
Do not profane my holy name. I must be acknowledged as holy by the Israelites. I am the LORD, who makes you holy.

If you don't listen to anything else I've said, then just listen to this: You don't "go to hell" because you doubt, or don't "understand" or see eye to eye with God. Faith is no magical solution to the problems of the world, to injustice or even to understanding God. It is an acceptance that in spite of the fact that you don't understand, and don't agree, you are one of the Israelites, and not one of the Amalekites. Remember what Israel means: he struggles with God. I would rather struggle with God, and still be amazed when He loves me anyway, than reject His mercy.

Maybe you'll never die, maybe you'll get reincarnated or simply cease to exist, maybe you'll go someplace other than than the pool of fire - but as long as sin clings to you, you are unfit to enter into God's presence.


PS. I didn't see any "excellent points" about the green turtle. You can't believe without "human terms". You don't need any number of followers. God does not expect anybody to just sit up and believe. Faith does come from belief, but belief comes from acceptance, and acceptance comes from simply realizing - Realizing that maybe the Bible does represent real people. That's it - if you can simply grasp that the people who wrote the various books of the Old Testament were real and honest people, you are 99% there. Read one book, e.g Jeremiah or Isaiah - the ones with the least possibility of "corruption" - with that in mind, and you will know who you are dealing with.

 

I know it was aimed at Heart, but i feel like butting in briefly. If there's a problem talk to the British courts about removing my right to freedom of speech. Thnx

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Can you please state your credentials. You are being arrogant, and rather dismissive, to a person who undoubtedly is just as qualified as you when it comes to reading books.

Heart's comment: "But you state these as facts." is relevant and accurate, but as always you just brush aside what people say- seemingly without paying any attention to it. If you have a valid argument then present it, but to simply dismiss someone as being prejudice and that they seem to have some inability to read and understand writing, is rude, arrogant, and self righteous.

There's nothing more than a bunch of copied texts to even suggest a god/s even exist. Tell me, if you've even bothered after all this time- are Sumerian texts symbolic? Factual? Did the other gods chop Tiamat into pieces? I only used the Sumerian gods because they're the basis for the biblical god, but by all means feel free to put any bizarre being/s in their place.

It always makes me laugh, and you do it so often. To understand god- look at humans.... Yet many other times i've heard: "humans can't even compare to god.." and other sentences of such nature. Why are you here comparing the human legal system to the behaviour patterns of a god? You know god that well that you know he uses human principles?

More English lessons for Heart. I bet he/she's honoured. Maybe you should do so first?

More of this putting god on a human level. Why would god be so bothered.

Is there reason to think god would be concerned over some humans thinking he was a fool? The majority of the planet don't even believe in the guy, and are more than willing to state if he does exist, he's an asshole. Wont allow his name to be compromised heh? Ok.

Yes you do... with every sentence.

If you read what Heart said, you'd realise your paragraph was completely irrelevant.

Everything- considering there's little to suggest a god/s even exist.

Shit, why didn't you say so earlier? Where do i sign up? Seriously though- i hope you find comfort from that belief.

Lol. *chokes on coffee*

From this angle it looks less like struggling, and more like sucking.

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Lol ffs, listen to yourself. Don't you even see how blatantly stupid that statement is?

Yeah, same as the Enuma Elish, the Epic of Gilgamesh, etc etc etc.. Of course considering a large portion of your bible is based upon those Sumerian stories it would be more evident to suggest if any of them were "real", it was the people in the original.

Man take a pill. You have no place to even make such a comment. You think you're in a position to claim the honesty of people you don't even know from several thousand years ago? Give it up, you're starting to look real pathetic. With what exact methods do you use to determine the integrity of these people that you don't even know? Come on.... make a statement like that you need to back it up.

Oh.... is that your evidence? Read a book that in your mind is "less corrupt" than the others and it's obviously true, and the people who wrote it were obviously 100% genuine? Pffft, you make me sick.

 

Jenyar,

I have yet to see a judge put a baby or child to death for something their parent had done. Have you?
Let's bring it little closer home for you: You have warned your child not to disobey you- "no cookies before dinner". Well, your child breaks down and tip toes to the kitchen to snatch a chocolate chip cookie. How would you punish them? A small swat on the butt followed by a heart to heart talk- or would you have given her/him the same punishment as the man who touched the ark of the covenant? I'm simply pointing out that I think "god's" actions are a bit extreme.

Okay...but, hmm, what do you mean by punishment? See, I'm not getting it- call me thick headed- but the quote in Deut 24:16 says they will die for their own sin but they will not be put to death because of what the other had done...however, read the scripture below again.

1 Samuel 15
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys

Now in the scripture you quoted, he said he wouldn't do that...yet he did. What baby could have possibly "sinned"? NONE..so they were being KILLED because of their fathers sins.

Let's say you were arrested for a crime that you committed. Now, if we apply some of "god's" actions in the bible to your child, they'd be sentenced to death- but, you think it's justice *throws hands up in air*

==========
6:6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth [his hand] to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook [it].

6:7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for [his] error; and there he died by the ark of God.

This plainly states "god" got pissed because of an error- how did "god" deal with it? He killed the guy

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These are not qualities of anyone I'd deem worthy of praise

So you are saying children can be killed for their fathers sins?

Reminds me of how an abusive person acts in a relationship. You know how it goes, the hitting then the honeymoon phase.

I'm going to have to end this post here...I've had a longgggggg day and am in need of sleep as I am seeing double - post more later

 

SnakeLord,

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You're welcome to post any time- I've no beef with that-

Psst.. Tell the giant green headed turtle hello for me

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1)We are not in a position to judge the innocence or guilt when and where we can't distinguish between the two, and
2) The Amalekites were not "God's children", they were the enemies of God's chosen.

If they still continued to rape and plunder for at 500 years after this event, I doubt that a small swat on the butt would have done much either. On the other hand, if you read the rest of Israel's history, you'll see plenty of "heart to heart talks".

In this case the punishment was death - as is often the punishment for war. But we do not know the guilt or sinless state of any of those people, so we do not know their judgement either. Remember, not all of them died (despite the command), so some were spared.

You can't compare moral justice with criminal justice. Neither can you really compare crime against people vs. crime against God. I might be arrested for one crime, while another goes unnoticed. God can't "overlook" any sin, but He can forgive if you turn away from it. In a court, repentance might only get you a few years less, depending on the crime.

Refer to my comparison in my other post. The child will share the punishment in another way than you will receive it. It cannot be death, since every man can only die for his own sin.

Another term for being found guilty by God is "God's wrath rested upon him". Not "He got pissed about it". Ths is a cultural expression and not something you or I could vouch for. I'm sure God was angry that He broke an explicit law. Actually, according to the law, all of those involved were on the verge of "kindling God's anger", Uzzah simply went too far.