views on evolution

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Hercules Rockefeller, Apr 21, 2011.

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  1. rpenner Fully Wired Staff Member

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    From this and the last few pages, I conclude that leopold lacks the reading comprehension to infer what Dr. Ayala believes about evolution from a news report on a debate of gradualism versus punctuated equilibrium, let alone adaquately summarize the scientific arguments and evidence. We are left with a mediocre argument from the "authority" of a specious quote only found on creationist dishonest quote mines and sites responding to their dishonesty.
     
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  3. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    I had not been following Leopold's arguments closely, have you?

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  5. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    and what does ayala believe?
    i offered what he said, i offered other stuff too.
    i believe i have adequately supported my side.
    as far as "enumerating" my evidence, what the hell does that mean?
    the quote comes from "science" not from some "creationist dishonest quote mines".
     
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  7. rpenner Fully Wired Staff Member

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    Then what was the paragraph that came before the purported Ayala quote?
     
  8. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    "Certainly the record is poor," admitted Gould, "but the jerkiness you see is not the result of gaps, it is the consequence of the jerky mode of evolutionary change." To the evident frustration of many people at the meeting, a large proportion of the contributions were characterized more by description and assertion than by the presentation of data. ".

    edit:
    the record gould refers to is the fossil record.
    page 884 has a graph that ayala based his quote on.
     
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    leopold:

    It's not my god. It's yours who has the problem with evolution, apparently.

    I'll call a spade a spade. You're a creationist. You believe that the world was created by your god and you're a science denier who is willing to lie and dissemble to avoid having to confront uncomfortable facts.

    You won't even own up to your faith. Is that what your church tells you to do - to hide your faith from the world and to be ashamed of it?

    Do you remember where Ayala wrote it?

    It's been pointed out to you many times now. What's wrong with you?

    Well, you're out of luck there, because there is a plethora of lab results that support evolution.

    You ought to make this your signature or user title.

    In other words, you either didn't bother to read it, or you skimmed it and discovered that it didn't support your creationist prejudices. Moreover, you were incapable of forming a reasoned response to it.

    I get it.

    Nonsense. Do a web search for "evolution is false". Your church will probably pop up among the millions of results.

    Creationists are either ignorant, loony or liar, or sometimes a combination of two or more of those.

    Maybe Ayala didn't request it.

    So, what's your problem then?

    No? Really, leopold, your lies make you look really bad.

    How many times do you have to have the link and the text of Ayala's repudiation of your quote shoved at you? How long will you continue to lie and pretend you haven't seen it?
     
  10. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    You said he was forced to print a retraction. That would be a conspiracy (multiple actors in a fraud).

    I was merely driving to the truth of the matter. Is it true?

    History speaks for itself. I was asking if you speak for history.
     
  11. leopold Valued Senior Member

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  12. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    whatever james.
    no.
    no.
    no.
    no.
    no.
    no.
     
  13. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Peer pressure to print a retraction for fear of losing one's job is what I meant by conspiracy. Under the Whistleblower Act, he could buy a Mediterranean island on their nickel for retaliating against him.

    Why do you assume that such pressure is bearing down on this trifling aspect of science when there are so many bigger fish to fry?

    That is what I was driving at. Do you feel there is a conspiratorial atmosphere surrounding the debate over creationism vs evolution?
     
  14. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    leopold,

    I just don't get the peer pressure angle:


    I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate.

    The paper that I presented at the conference reported by Lewin is virtually the same that I presented in 1982 in Cambridge, at a conference commemorating the 200 [sic] anniversary of Darwin's death. It deals with the claims of "punctuated equilibrium" and how microevolutionary change relates to macroevolution. (I provide experimental results showing how one can obtain in the laboratory, as a result of the accumulation of small genetic changes, morphological changes of the magnitude observed by paleontologists and presented as evidence of punctuated equilibrium.) The paper was published as part of the conference proceedings:

    Ayala, F.J. 1983. Microevolution and macroevolution. In: D.S. Bendall, ed., Evolution from Molecules to Men (Cambridge University Press), pp. 387-402.

    More accessible are two papers dealing with the same topic, written with my colleague G.L. Stebbins: Stebbins, G.L. and F.J. Ayala. 1981. Is a new evolutionary synthesis necessary? Science 213:967-971. (I quote from the abstract of the paper:

    "Macroevolutionary processes are underlain by microevolutionary phenomena and are compatible with the synthetic theory of evolution." But, please, read the whole paper to get the wealth of results and ideas that we are discussing; and read also the following paper:

    "Stebbins, G.L. and F.J. Ayala. 1985. The Evolution of Darwinism. Sci. American 253:72-82."

    You may quote from this letter so long as you don't quote out of context or incomplete sentences.

    Sincerely yours,
    Francisco J. Ayala​


    citing http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/another_creationist_out_of_context_quote.htm

    you mean he retracted decades of his work in Science, then, under peer pressure, went back and reversed himself, reinstating his lifelong position?

    It just doesn't fly.

    Also: when you said:

    This is like the voice of activism, a good thing sometimes.

    What exactly is your complaint?

    What are you saying needs to change?
     
  15. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    did you do a stinky, or is something else going on:

    citing http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/another_creationist_out_of_context_quote.htm

    which finds the quote, disclaimed by Dr. Ayala, at creationscience.com, where they are selling a book that rewrites natural history.

    What the heck is going on here?
     
  16. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    or Roger Lewin based his quote on?
     
  17. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    you can bat that ball all you want.
    this is why i want to see a retraction from "science".

    "science" never retracted ANYTHING regarding the piece in discussion.

    i'm quite positive it wasn't because ayala was unaware of the error.
     
  18. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    It was 30 years ago
    who would own up to it?
     
  19. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    There was a retraction from the source, which is the only thing that matters. Doesn't it matter to you that you base your criticism of evolution on a misquote?
     
  20. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    Of course not! He doesn't want evolution to be true (for whatever reason) so he has to grasp at something, regardless if it is false or not. He thinks facts, data and observations are simply annoying details that get in the way of what he wants to believe.
     
  21. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    this is a flat out lie.
    "science" was the source, "science" never issued a retraction in regards to this issue.
     
  22. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    Geeze leopold, your arguments are getting even more transparent than usual and becoming rather pathetic.
     
  23. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    But if we know they are wrong, that's the important thing, isn't it? Do you think you will win the debate on a technicality?
     
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